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The Psychology Of Previous Investment

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  • #31
    Okay we've done it we've crossed into gun nerdom, I shall go no further

    Since we are talking speed shooting and Miculek, when S&W brought out the 929 I posted on this forum that it was built in part so Miculek could set a speed record that would unlikely ever be broken, that was speculation on my part but Jerry did set a new record using the 929

    The other reason was to dominate ICORE

    When we look at the 929 what do we see, we see a cylinder that is considerably shorter than other N frame cylinders and made from titanium

    There are two reasons for the short cylinder, one being to reduce the jump to the forcing cone, this supposedly helps with accuracy

    The other and primary reason is a reduction in weight, the lighter the cylinder the faster it spins


    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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    • #32
      Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

      That's not what I said. I said that for me the 45 is a good accurate cartridge. I didn't compare it to the 9 or anything else. As for the efficiency, that is irrelevant..What counts is getting our rounds on target as fast as we can. Period.
      I misspoke. It was meant to be a question. Do you feel the .45 is more accurate when compared to say, 9mm?

      Efficiency is irrelevant? How so?

      Getting rounds on target as fast as we can = incapacitating the threat as quickly as possible = a race to the last round. Does efficiency not play a role in this?

      If we except the info offered by Ellifritz and Givens as I believe you do, then how can we come to any other conclusion than 9mm is a more efficient round, meaning it allows us to stop the threat with less time, effort and energy.

      If 9 and 45 take virtually the same number of rounds on average to stop a threat and we except that 9mm creates less energy/recoil, less recoil means greater control over the gun, greater control means faster hits on target, faster hits means we stop the threat in less time with less effort.

      We may like .45 better but that doesn't mean it is better.

      I don't care about .cal so much, it's the concept of efficiency that we can carry into other more important areas of personal defense and life in general that I'm most concerned about. The sum of all its parts. I believe efficiency is a mindset.

      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

        I misspoke. It was meant to be a question. Do you feel the .45 is more accurate when compared to say, 9mm?

        Efficiency is irrelevant? How so?

        Getting rounds on target as fast as we can = incapacitating the threat as quickly as possible = a race to the last round. Does efficiency not play a role in this?

        If we except the info offered by Ellifritz and Givens as I believe you do, then how can we come to any other conclusion than 9mm is a more efficient round, meaning it allows us to stop the threat with less time, effort and energy.

        If 9 and 45 take virtually the same number of rounds on average to stop a threat and we except that 9mm creates less energy/recoil, less recoil means greater control over the gun, greater control means faster hits on target, faster hits means we stop the threat in less time with less effort.

        We may like .45 better but that doesn't mean it is better.

        I don't care about .cal so much, it's the concept of efficiency that we can carry into other more important areas of personal defense and life in general that I'm most concerned about. The sum of all its parts. I believe efficiency is a mindset.
        I don't see efficiency as that big an issue in self-defense. And you have yet to put forth a convincing case that it is.

        I have to give credit to you though, as you seem to have dropped your previous heavy emphasis on equipment.
        Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
        The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

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        • #34
          I have to ask, "efficency" regarding.............
          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

          Comment


          • #35
            I think I'm beginning to better understand the term 'paralysis of analysis'. Ace2
            Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ricco View Post
              Okay we've done it we've crossed into gun nerdom, I shall go no further

              Since we are talking speed shooting and Miculek, when S&W brought out the 929 I posted on this forum that it was built in part so Miculek could set a speed record that would unlikely ever be broken, that was speculation on my part but Jerry did set a new record using the 929

              The other reason was to dominate ICORE

              When we look at the 929 what do we see, we see a cylinder that is considerably shorter than other N frame cylinders and made from titanium

              There are two reasons for the short cylinder, one being to reduce the jump to the forcing cone, this supposedly helps with accuracy

              The other and primary reason is a reduction in weight, the lighter the cylinder the faster it spins

              To reduce the overall weight of the revolver, but not increase the speed of rotation. Someone like Jerry Miculek, it might make a difference to, but I doubt the vast majority of folks are that fast. I'm good with wheelguns but I'm not that good.

              Speeding up the cylinder rotation was, I imagine not the primary rationale for reducing the weight; it was a side benefit only.

              Interesting discussion, though.

              Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
              The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

              Comment


              • #37
                ricco, after a bit of reflection, I have to concede this to you. The weight of the cylinder does affect the effort required to pull the trigger, as part of job of the trigger in a DA wheelgun is to advance the cylinder. It stands to reason that the lighter the cylinder is, the less effort is required to do it. I forget sometimes that I have tremendous wrist and hand strength, so to me anyway, the DA pull on an N-frame is not really an issue.

                Does this put what I say in a slightly different perspective?
                Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

                  I don't see efficiency as that big an issue in self-defense. And you have yet to put forth a convincing case that it is.

                  I have to give credit to you though, as you seem to have dropped your previous heavy emphasis on equipment.
                  I'm not here to change your mind though I am interested in helping people understand.

                  My emphasis has never been on equipment. I've explained that I feel the gear we choose is important as it can help us complete the task at hand better or worse, more or less efficiently. My main concern has always been the mental side of self defense. Gear is simply a starting point.

                  Not very PC but as the saying goes, it's not the arrow or the Indian, it's a system made up of both parts working together to accomplish a goal.

                  Originally posted by ricco View Post
                  I have to ask, "efficency" regarding.............
                  For me, regarding everything.

                  "The comparison of what is actually produced or performed with what can be achieved with the same consumption of resources money time labor Etc it is an important factor in determination of productivity."
                  Last edited by mjkeat; 12-06-2017, 19:04.
                  Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
                    ricco, after a bit of reflection, I have to concede this to you. The weight of the cylinder does affect the effort required to pull the trigger, as part of job of the trigger in a DA wheelgun is to advance the cylinder. It stands to reason that the lighter the cylinder is, the less effort is required to do it. I forget sometimes that I have tremendous wrist and hand strength, so to me anyway, the DA pull on an N-frame is not really an issue.

                    Does this put what I say in a slightly different perspective?
                    It takes more energy to move a heavier object. Our strength doesn't change this relationship though it probably changes our perception.

                    I'll make some **** up.

                    Let's say task "A" takes 20 pounds of force to complete.

                    There are 2 workers needing to each complete task "A" individually. They are instructed to use no more than the 20 pounds of force required to complete the task.

                    Worker 1 is capable of producing up to 22 pounds of force while worker 2 is capable of producing up to 45 pounds of force.

                    Worker 1 likely had a more difficult time completing the task. Worker 2 likely completed the task quite easily. Their perception may differ but they still exerted the same amount of force to complete.

                    What happens if their boss removes the 20 pound force limitation?
                    Last edited by mjkeat; 12-06-2017, 19:18.
                    Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                    • #40
                      I can understand that part about 'mental', considering.

                      In the FWIW column, .44Magnum has not been a good fight stopper in the real world. Good .44Spl loads have been better---comparing the two calibers and for those who prefer something that starts with a '4'. Ace2
                      Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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