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10mm for Defense?

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  • #16


    CCW fights are typically short in duration

    A hole in the lung is a hole in the lung, air won't leak out or blood leak in substantially faster from a .40 caliber hole than from a 36 caliber hole in terms of CCW self defense

    Same for the esophagus

    If the heart is hit, again no difference

    The heavier 10mm MIGHT break bones better than a .36 caliber but unless the bones in the limb holding the gun are destroyed the BG will have use of his weapon

    A punch to the liver will cause enough pain to make people fall so it is unlikely the 10mm would perform significantly better than .36 caliber

    And so forth



    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ricco View Post

      CCW fights are typically short in duration

      A hole in the lung is a hole in the lung, air won't leak out or blood leak in substantially faster from a .40 caliber hole than from a 36 caliber hole in terms of CCW self defense

      Same for the esophagus

      If the heart is hit, again no difference

      The heavier 10mm MIGHT break bones better than a .36 caliber but unless the bones in the limb holding the gun are destroyed the BG will have use of his weapon

      A punch to the liver will cause enough pain to make people fall so it is unlikely the 10mm would perform significantly better than .36 caliber

      And so forth
      Add to that whatbweve already discussed, regardless of our level of skill we'll be slower at creating the holes with 10mm than with 9mm there is no pracrical reason to carry it. Then we can stack things like cost, availability, and so on to make it even less viable. It doesn't take a genius, thankfully for me , to figure this out. Lol.
      Last edited by mjkeat; 02-13-2018, 04:46.
      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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      • #18
        It also depends on what is a perceived threat and your environment. Lots of people in Alaska carry 10mm, then again a threat can be a brown bear.
        "Boards!!! Do not hit back!!" Bruce Lee
        "Luck favors the prepared"
        "You think I'm a hero? I am not a hero. And if you're smart, that scares you. Because I have nothing to lose. I mean to beat you to death, and drink your blood from a boot." Jack Reacher

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        • #19
          Mine is primarily intended as a fun gun, and while I would use it for defense if I had to, it would not be my first choice and mostly for the reasons that ricco put forth. However, I still think it is a viable option.
          Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
          The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

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          • #20
            I like 10mm

            CMMG is supposed to be working on an AR platform in 10mm

            I will need to own that

            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
              Mine is primarily intended as a fun gun, and while I would use it for defense if I had to, it would not be my first choice and mostly for the reasons that ricco put forth. However, I still think it is a viable option.
              What makes it a viable option with the less expensive options readily available to use?
              Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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              • #22
                It was a slow day at the range so a couple of us slid over to the firearms sales counter to help with customers. When asked if he was looking for anything particular the customer said something in .40. The salesman asked him what brought him to the decide on .40. He responded, it's versatile. When asked what he meant by that all he could do is repeat himself, it's versatile.

                He sisnt have a clue what he was talking about or why he wanted a defensive gun chambered in. 40 s&w but was more than ready to pu down the money on something and then carry it around possibly having to rely on it to help him defend innocent life.

                This is crazy AF in my eyes. Choosing our tools and gear is a very important endeavor. People approach choosing techniques and methodology in the same manner. Crazy as hell.

                People will spend months researching vehicles before making a purchase but will adopt methods, hear, etc. without even a second of consideration.
                Last edited by mjkeat; 02-17-2018, 10:41.
                Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                • #23
                  There is a saying, "The truth lies somewhere in the middle", it's is why the .40 S&W exists, it's in the middle

                  People think they are getting the best of both, a compromise of sorts

                  It will have more "stopping power" (I thought had term had gone away but I just read it last week) than the anemic 9mm or .38 spl without the horrific recoil of the .45acp

                  My opinion, there is nothing the .40 does better than the .36 or .45
                  "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                  "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    IF you're into some of the gun games, it does make quite a bit of sense because you can make major power factor and still maintain a decent capacity. Also if you reload, both the .40 and 10mm ARE very versatile cartridges based on the bullet weights offered which range from 125grn up to 200 with some lighter extreme weights in the 90s and 100s.

                    BTW, Websters defines "viable" as:

                    a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately
                    • viable alternatives
                    b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit
                    • The colony is now a viable state.
                    c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding
                    • a viable candidate
                    (2) : financially sustainable
                    • a viable enterprise
                    Based on the definition, I'd hazard a guess that most would consider the 10mm to be a "viable" SD cartridge as it does achieve the FBIs standards in penetration. Doesn't necessarily mean it would be the "best" based on the individual. While caliber wars are silly, Paul Harrell did a decent review of 9mm VS .40 sometime ago that compared accuracy VS time which is what the 9mm guys normally tout when comparing to larger calibers.



                    Take a look at the 9 second mark where he looks at engaging multiple targets comparing accuracy and time between to similar (exact) sized pistols in 9mm & .40. The difference in time and accuracy demonstrated wasn't exactly earth-shattering when both are shot by a fairly competent shooter. A rationale individual could come to the conclusion that the extra energy provided by .40 trumps the extra capacity and easier recoil provided by the 9mm.

                    Just as it'd be pretty tough to determine IF a couple .1's in expansion played a role in success or failure in a defensive shooting, it would be also tough to argue that a couple .1s in time made a difference either.

                    Do some research, test some guns and loads, don't depend on advice for guys on the internet or some chuckleheads hanging around a gun-shop counter.
                    homo homini lupus est

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chuck R. View Post
                      IF you're into some of the gun games, it does make quite a bit of sense because you can make major power factor and still maintain a decent capacity. Also if you reload, both the .40 and 10mm ARE very versatile cartridges based on the bullet weights offered which range from 125grn up to 200 with some lighter extreme weights in the 90s and 100s.

                      BTW, Websters defines "viable" as:



                      Based on the definition, I'd hazard a guess that most would consider the 10mm to be a "viable" SD cartridge as it does achieve the FBIs standards in penetration. Doesn't necessarily mean it would be the "best" based on the individual. While caliber wars are silly, Paul Harrell did a decent review of 9mm VS .40 sometime ago that compared accuracy VS time which is what the 9mm guys normally tout when comparing to larger calibers.

                      it as the gun I had with me

                      Take a look at the 9 second mark where he looks at engaging multiple targets comparing accuracy and time between to similar (exact) sized pistols in 9mm & .40. The difference in time and accuracy demonstrated wasn't exactly earth-shattering when both are shot by a fairly competent shooter. A rationale individual could come to the conclusion that the extra energy provided by .40 trumps the extra capacity and easier recoil provided by the 9mm.

                      Just as it'd be pretty tough to determine IF a couple .1's in expansion played a role in success or failure in a defensive shooting, it would be also tough to argue that a couple .1s in time made a difference either.

                      Do some research, test some guns and loads, don't depend on advice for guys on the internet or some chuckleheads hanging around a gun-shop counter.
                      Quite so. When I said it was a 'viable option' I meant that if it was the gun I had with me, I'd use it. For example, if I am at my range shooting my 610 and that is the only gun I have, that is what I'd use in the unlikely event that I am accosted there. In that case, it is not too terribly realistic to expect me to go home, get my 686 and return to my range in order to defend myself with a 'better' gun. Please note that that last was intended as hyperbole.

                      As I have said here before, I think that my 610, as fun as it is, is not a gun that I would normally carry for self defense. But it is a viable option under the circumstances described in this post.
                      Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                      The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        There were a lot of old duffers who disparaged the .40S&W when the caliber came to be. Attitudes were pretty much 'Why? Be a man and shoot a .45, or put on your pretty pink panties and shoot a 9'---all in good humor, of course, especially since the improvements in bullet design the last few years make the old .45/9mm caliber war moot. The 10mm is a fine caliber, and quite versatile; lighter loads are available for defensive purposes, with heavier loads quite capable of taking deer- and pig-size critters ethically.

                        One of the big plusses with the .40 is that all the 'standard' bullet weights (135, 155, 165, and 180 grain, as I recall) in good hollow point design have each worked extremely well in real-life situations. So, if you decide on a .40, the question isn't 'Which weight bullet should I use?', it's 'Which weight is the most accurate in my particular gun?' The one that you get the smallest group with is the one to choose.
                        One of the big minuses, for some people, is the recoil is a bit sharper than the 9mm. So, if you're recoil sensitive, the 9 might be easier--or you can learn to handle the .40, and go from there. If you happen to like the 10mm, bless you.

                        The vast majority of civilian self defense situations, there are five or fewer shots fired. So, do you need the two or three more rounds you get with a 9 compared to a .40? Maybe not 'need', but if you're more comfortable with 15 rounds than 13 or 14, go with the 9mm and be well.

                        Whichever works best for you, and you prefer to shoot, go for it. The bad guy will most likely not know the difference. It's doubtful one will refuse to go down, or complain, because you shot him with a wimpy 9 instead of a more rugged .40/.45/10mm. Assuming good ammo, the three most important factors in stopping bad guys is Shot Placement, Shot Placement, and Where You Put The Bullet. Ace2
                        Last edited by Ace; 02-18-2018, 00:55.
                        Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ace View Post
                          There were a lot of old duffers who disparaged the .40S&W when the caliber came to be. Attitudes were pretty much 'Why? Be a man and shoot a .45, or put on your pretty pink panties and shoot a 9'---all in good humor, of course, especially since the improvements in bullet design the last few years make the old .45/9mm caliber war moot. The 10mm is a fine caliber, and quite versatile; lighter loads are available for defensive purposes, with heavier loads quite capable of taking deer- and pig-size critters ethically.

                          One of the big plusses with the .40 is that all the 'standard' bullet weights (135, 155, 165, and 180 grain, as I recall) in good hollow point design have each worked extremely well in real-life situations. So, if you decide on a .40, the question isn't 'Which weight bullet should I use?', it's 'Which weight is the most accurate in my particular gun?' The one that you get the smallest group with is the one to choose.
                          One of the big minuses, for some people, is the recoil is a bit sharper than the 9mm. So, if you're recoil sensitive, the 9 might be easier--or you can learn to handle the .40, and go from there. If you happen to like the 10mm, bless you.

                          The vast majority of civilian self defense situations, there are five or fewer shots fired. So, do you need the two or three more rounds you get with a 9 compared to a .40? Maybe not 'need', but if you're more comfortable with 15 rounds that 13 or 14, go with the 9mm and be well.

                          Whichever works best for you, and you prefer to shoot, go for it. The bad guy will most likely not know the difference. It's doubtful one will refuse to go down, or complain, because you shot him with a wimpy 9 instead of a more rugged .40/.45/10mm. Assuming good ammo, the three most important factors in stopping bad guys is Shot Placement, Shot Placement, and Where You Put The Bullet. Ace2
                          I debated quoting this post as I felt forcing it on the world a second time was wrong but...

                          According to the data compiled by Elifritz and Givens it is likely to take the same number of hits. That has never been the argument for those who have put in the work. The difference comes via the shooters ability to control the gun which translates into how quickly and accurately the shooter can get the hits they need.

                          John will always be able to shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately than the .40. Period. It's science (insert silly face).

                          Not only does the .40 create more energy it does it in a manner that negative effects the shooter ability to control it. Recoil curve or whatever, doesn't matter what it's called.

                          As much as I support the theory of shot placement the truth is starting to show the psychological stop is more than likely the end we'll be experiencing when dealing with handguns. I'm starting to believe the faster we shoot them regardless of where the better off we'll be. The issue comes when the BG has to be stopped physically. That seems to be a rare enough occurrence it might not matter.

                          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                            John will always be able to shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately than the .40. Period. It's science (insert silly face).
                            . . . .

                            As much as I support the theory of shot placement the truth is starting to show the psychological stop is more than likely the end we'll be experiencing when dealing with handguns.
                            Hell, then carry a .22.

                            No?

                            This is not hard, and it’s not particularly “science”. Get the gun you like and that is comfortable for you, fits your hand and your lifestyle, in the caliber that you like and you can shoot well. Practice and train with it, make sure it’s reliable and you can consistently put rounds on target quickly and controllably, so you are confident in your ability.

                            Then carry whatever you damn well please that fits that criteria. And don’t let some self-important jacka** tell you that you’re “wrong.”
                            "In Heaven there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the Lamb... In Hell there will be nothing but law, and due process will Be meticulously observed". - Professor Grant Gilmore, Yale Law School

                            "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by gmc70 View Post

                              hell, then carry a .22.

                              No?

                              This is not hard, and it’s not particularly “science”. Get the gun you like and that is comfortable for you, fits your hand and your lifestyle, in the caliber that you like and you can shoot well. Practice and train with it, make sure it’s reliable and you can consistently put rounds on target quickly and controllably, so you are confident in your ability.

                              Then carry whatever you damn well please that fits that criteria. And don’t let some self-important jacka** tell you that you’re “wrong.”
                              heresy!!!!
                              Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                              The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by GMC70 View Post

                                Hell, then carry a .22.

                                No?

                                This is not hard, and it’s not particularly “science”. Get the gun you like and that is comfortable for you, fits your hand and your lifestyle, in the caliber that you like and you can shoot well. Practice and train with it, make sure it’s reliable and you can consistently put rounds on target quickly and controllably, so you are confident in your ability.

                                Then carry whatever you damn well please that fits that criteria. And don’t let some self-important jacka** tell you that you’re “wrong.”
                                Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                My standing offer for people's "old" MRE's, $1 each for dark brown bags. $12/case $2 each for the sand tan bags (newer). $24/case
                                MAYBE, if they are 2010 and newer, I give you $2.50 each....... generosity.50 cents each for loose heaters. Where's those highlight video links mjkeat???????

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