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  • #16
    If Sanow and Marshall ever write another book I'll probably read it, I'll read it for the same reason I watch Big Bang Theory, laughs
    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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    • #17
      Yeah, I'd believe that. I referred to that mindset in my post. Ace2
      Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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      • #18
        I think what I remember most about the book is how pissed I was for spending money on misleading information, I just have to chalk it up as part of the learning process

        But hey, if others are happy with being mislead I say go for it






        "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

        "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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        • #19
          Nothing misleading at all. You gotta be smart enough to apply the information as intended. Ace2
          Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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          • #20
            Like I said if you're happy believe whatever you like
            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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            • #21
              Would you care to explain what is misleading about their information? They never say 'Do this or that our way or you're wrong' or anything like. They simply document situations where/how different loads have worked in real life. Many, many people have read their books, taken the information and applied it to their own situations, and come out very satisfied. Where are they wrong? Ace2
              Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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              • #22
                If you're good with the information that's all that matters isn't it

                You say their documentation

                Their documentation shows a .357 magnum 125 gr jhp has a 96% one stop when hitting the torso

                Do you believe that to be true

                If you do there no point going further with this discussion


                ETA

                My opinion, this all but proves that attempting to quantify "stopping power" is nearly impossible

                An example being and is mentioned by Ellifritz, his documentation shows that .32 acp has a higher incapactation rate than a .45 acp, he doesn't believe it but that's what the documentation shows

                So believe as you please

                Me, I will continue to believe that so called "stopping power" as propagated by some is a myth

                http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...stopping-power
                Last edited by ricco; 03-14-2018, 22:59.
                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                Comment


                • #23
                  I believe that the data they studied showed that 96% of the people shot with a 125 grain 357 either couldn't, or didn't want to continue whatever they were doing before getting shot.

                  I also believe that in a similar study (Ellfritz), the 357 (both mag & SIG) performed at a slightly higher rate than the other common SD calibers.

                  Which is about all any of these studies are going to able able to tell you.

                  I really like Ellfritz's study, because he goes to a decent length to explain this. So while I do believe that all of these studies are suspect due to the in ability to account for the "psychological stop". I do believe that they (the studies) and taken into account with some terminal ballistic testing can give you an idea of what "should" happen.

                  Unlike some I don't believe that doing research and picking around that best suits your situation is a waste of time. There are some bullets that are designed to perform differently, that may actually provide an advantage depending on the situation; barriers etc. I also don't believe that picking a caliber because you can get a slightly better split time is going to automatically save your azz. Which is also about the only difference in common SD calibers when it comes to shootability, and just like the psychological stop, shooters ability is difficult to measure.
                  homo homini lupus est

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                  • #24
                    You got it, Chuck. They don't say 'You gotta use this load or you're wrong.' They just put out the results from all the information they gathered, and give smart people something to look at and consider when choosing a carry load. As I recall, the point is also made about the difference between physical and psychological stops---don't remember if they used the term 'psychological stop', but the point is the same. Also have to realize their numbers come from the incidents they had information on; it's unknown how many they didn't know of and didn't get included in their studies, which may or may not have affected the numbers.

                    I've known folks who have shot, for example, one deer with a particular load, the deer dropped in its tracks, and so they are convinced that particular load is a 100% drop-em-on-the-spot bullet. What a shock to them when the next half dozen deers actually run a bit before they fall down--which is normal. Some will choose their carry ammo the same way--'I heard about this guy who got shot one time with a FMJ .25, and he fell right down; so I'm gonna carry a .25 and FMJ's, cause they always work.' Well, it did that one time; others, not so much.
                    But if there are dozens, or hundreds, of examples where a particular load stops a fight with only one shot in 90+% of the cases, and another load does the same thing but in 50% of the cases, which would be the smarter choice? Again, with the understanding that regardless of the chosen load, you still are/should be prepared to shoot as many times as it takes to end hostilities.

                    But some, those low-comprehension people, will just look at the numbers, and take it for granted that the authors are insisting that this load must be 'the one', rather than taking the information for what it was intended. Ace2

                    edit to add: I don't remember the numbers, but do remember being surprised that the .44 Magnum turned out to be a really poor fight stopper. This was back in the day when I believed that 'more is better'. Sure messed up the image of Dirty Harry, knowing he had such great results on the movie screen. Ace2 again
                    Last edited by Ace; 03-15-2018, 15:59.
                    Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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                    • #25
                      Has anyone mentioned anything about how controllable these rounds are in the more common defensive handguns?
                      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                      • #26
                        Not the issue, basically not 'an' issue if the gun somebody picks for their own use works for them. Ace2
                        Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ace View Post
                          Not the issue, basically not 'an' issue if the gun somebody picks for their own use works for them. Ace2
                          Recoil control is not an issue? Works for them? Whatever's comfortable? Personal preference right? Who cares what is easiest to control allowing is to get faster more accurate hits considering "stopping power" is basically a wash? Lol. Less energy is less energy. Less energy allows for greater control regardless. Is that not fairly simple to wrap our heads around?

                          Don't they have power limits in comp shooting? Don't shooters load their rounds to the lower limits of the power levels? Why is that?
                          Last edited by mjkeat; 03-16-2018, 03:02.
                          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                          • #28
                            Not the discussion. Hush and let the grownups talk. Ace2
                            Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ace View Post
                              Not the discussion. Hush and let the grownups talk. Ace2
                              The fact that this is how you chose to respond to my post and that you think it's not part of the discussion shows how little you understand.

                              The bullets ability to cause damage means **** if we can't get the hits we need.

                              The faster we get the hits, the faster we get to the last hit, the hit that stops the attack making us safer, quicker. Our ability to control recoil is/should be a part of this discussion whether you have the ability to understand that or not.

                              If we had two of the same guns, one chambered in 9mm and one in .45 which could we manage better in terms of recoil management? The 9mm, everyone could because the round makes less energy. If it takes the same number of hits with the 9mm as it does with the .45 to stop the threat but we can get hits faster with 9mm which is a better choice if the goal is to stop the threat as quickly as possible?

                              This idea is something taught in high school science. We should all know this stuff.
                              Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                              • #30
                                With a 97 grain bullet I would guess recoil would be pretty light

                                When you think about it multiple wound channels would cause increased bleeding and a faster drop in BP

                                Of course if the bullet didn't work as advertised it might not get deep enough to hit any vitals

                                If the BG were standing face on like a B 27 target, that wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately that hardly ever happens

                                So ya pays your money and takes your chances
                                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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