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Accuracy vs Precision

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  • #16
    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
    *****
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    The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
    If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
    I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

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    • #17
      Well, several people have defined the two words as different, and I understand their definitions, however, I have used the two terms interchangeably in the past--there, I have admitted my ignorance.

      The way I see it, is you need to shoot accurately to place your bullet precisely where you want it to go, that is, you need to shoot with precision. See how I used the words? I suppose I'm using them incorrectly, at least according to the definitions posted previously, I guess.

      Whatever. If you don't hit the right spot with the bullet, you may not get the desired effect. Through the ears or between the eyes, you should hit the brain stem and have an instant incapacitation of the assailant. Alternatively, if you hit the assailant in the pinky, he/she may be psychologically persuaded to stop being aggressive. Your mileage may vary. A lot depends on the determination of the assailant and their mental state. As with wild game, a mortally wounded human can continue to function for some time, time enough to inflict harm upon you before expiring. That is why incapacitating shots are preferred, such as the brain stem shot, which will immediately stop an assailant. However, it is currently believed that in a gunfight, due to many variables, such precise bullet placement is not likely, so the center of mass is taught as the place to shoot at, due to the location of vital organs in that area and the better odds of striking them with a bullet. Generally this wound will not produce an instant incapacitation, but will result in exsanguination, leading to eventual loss of consciousness and then death. However, the COM wound could result in an instant psychological stop of the assailant, which, I have come to understand is the usual case, but again, your mileage may vary, depending on the mental state of the assailant. If this post seems redundant, I appologize.
      Last edited by Goodtime Charlie; 03-13-2019, 00:51.
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jim Macklin View Post

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        In case you're wondering what that was about, I was answering a subject in another thread, and inadvertently posted in this thread. As soon as I realized what happened, I C&P'd the answer, deleted the post here, and put it in the right thread.
        Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
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        • #19
          Originally posted by Goodtime Charlie View Post
          Well, several people have defined the two words as different, and I understand their definitions, however, I have used the two terms interchangeably in the past--there, I have admitted my ignorance.

          The way I see it, is you need to shoot accurately to place your bullet precisely where you want it to go, that is, you need to shoot with precision. See how I used the words? I suppose I'm using them incorrectly, at least according to the definitions posted previously, I guess.

          Whatever. If you don't hit the right spot with the bullet, you may not get the desired effect. Through the ears or between the eyes, you should hit the brain stem and have an instant incapacitation of the assailant. Alternatively, if you hit the assailant in the pinky, he/she may be psychologically persuaded to stop being aggressive. Your mileage may vary. A lot depends on the determination of the assailant and their mental state. As with wild game, a mortally wounded human can continue to function for some time, time enough to inflict harm upon you before expiring. That is why incapacitating shots are preferred, such as the brain stem shot, which will immediately stop an assailant. However, it is currently believed that in a gunfight, due to many variables, such precise bullet placement is not likely, so the center of mass is taught as the place to shoot at, due to the location of vital organs in that area and the better odds of striking them with a bullet. Generally this wound will not produce an instant incapacitation, but will result in exsanguination, leading to eventual loss of consciousness and then death. However, the COM wound could result in an instant psychological stop of the assailant, which, I have come to understand is the usual case, but again, your mileage may vary, depending on the mental state of the assailant. If this post seems redundant, I appologize.
          But this kind of precision is not needed. If you can hit a circle 8" in diameter, that will suffice in most cases. That is how I would define combat accuracy.. If you can hit with great precision, that's great, but in my view it is rarely necessary.

          The only time when great precision is required, my erudite friend, is when you are going for a shot to the brain stem or the medulla. That is almost invariably fatal, but at the same time, it is also a near certain one shot and instant stop. My view is that people are better-off training for the accuracy described by some in this thread, as it is reasonably easy to achieve.

          Hope this clarifies it some.
          Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
          The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
            But this kind of precision is not needed. If you can hit a circle 8" in diameter, that will suffice in most cases. That is how I would define combat accuracy.. If you can hit with great precision, that's great, but in my view it is rarely necessary.

            The only time when great precision is required, my erudite friend, is when you are going for a shot to the brain stem or the medulla. That is almost invariably fatal, but at the same time, it is also a near certain one shot and instant stop. My view is that people are better-off training for the accuracy described by some in this thread, as it is reasonably easy to achieve.

            Hope this clarifies it some.
            It (high levels of precision) could be needed. You're better off practicing (training is not the same as practicing) for the most probable of scenarios but also developing other skills such as the ability to achieve high levels of precision. Time spent on skills should reflect the likelihood of their need. If 94% of defensive use of a handgun events are between 9 and 15 feet shooting the HCC I am probably going to spend 94% of my resources practicing at those distances and that size target area. I'm not spending 30% of my resources practicing hits on a 3" circle at 30ft. but I will vary target size and distance accordingly as to reflect the chances of being faced with that problem. This can also be used for approaching angles to the threat which I've seen quite a few shooters struggle with. The target area is 360 deg. not just 2D.

            The Balance Of Speed And Precision drill is the most important drill one can run, period.

            There could come a time when face shooting someone at an extended distance may be necessary and we should probably have the skill to do so. Precision isn't just about being able to shoot brain stems and a person that claims that is "the only time great precision is required" doesnt know what they are talking about and shouldn't be giving advice or making recommendations. They should absolutely stop doing so.

            Combat Accuracy is any shot that significantly effects the targets ability to present a lethal threat even if momentarily. This can include a missed shot if it causes the target to end it's attack or momentarily stop presenting a lethal threat. Is that not different than accuracy?

            Practicing for things simply because they are easy to achieve? Really? How about practicing for the things we're most likely to be faced with? That has nothing to do with how easy they are or are not. That's ridiculous advice.


            "Hope this clarifies it some." No it didn't clarify anything, you actually muddied the water.
            Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Goodtime Charlie View Post
              Well, several people have defined the two words as different, and I understand their definitions, however, I have used the two terms interchangeably in the past--there, I have admitted my ignorance.

              The way I see it, is you need to shoot accurately to place your bullet precisely where you want it to go, that is, you need to shoot with precision. See how I used the words? I suppose I'm using them incorrectly, at least according to the definitions posted previously, I guess.

              Whatever. If you don't hit the right spot with the bullet, you may not get the desired effect. Through the ears or between the eyes, you should hit the brain stem and have an instant incapacitation of the assailant. Alternatively, if you hit the assailant in the pinky, he/she may be psychologically persuaded to stop being aggressive. Your mileage may vary. A lot depends on the determination of the assailant and their mental state. As with wild game, a mortally wounded human can continue to function for some time, time enough to inflict harm upon you before expiring. That is why incapacitating shots are preferred, such as the brain stem shot, which will immediately stop an assailant. However, it is currently believed that in a gunfight, due to many variables, such precise bullet placement is not likely, so the center of mass is taught as the place to shoot at, due to the location of vital organs in that area and the better odds of striking them with a bullet. Generally this wound will not produce an instant incapacitation, but will result in exsanguination, leading to eventual loss of consciousness and then death. However, the COM wound could result in an instant psychological stop of the assailant, which, I have come to understand is the usual case, but again, your mileage may vary, depending on the mental state of the assailant. If this post seems redundant, I appologize.

              "Technically" you're wrong, but I don't think anybody (with an iota of common sense) wouldn't understand what you mean. There are some that would get their panties bunched up, but they're also the ones that freak when somebody uses the word clip instead of magazine.....

              I get a kick out of the folks that KNOW what level of accuracy they'll need, because unless you've got some kind of crystal ball and KNOW exactly the situation you'll be in when you have to defend yourself you're playing the odds just like the rest of us. Training for an 8" kill zone is great right up until you don't have an 8" kill zone to shoot at. A lot of the guys I've trained with use the "open hand" measurement. I prefer to go for 6" or 4" knowing things will open up some when under pressure. Cause IF you strive for an 8" in training/practice you're probably looking at 10-12 when push comes to shove.

              I once had a pretty awesome instructor that put it in words that made perfect sense . We were working a cadence drill at varying distances and discussing how long it took to make the shots based on tgt size and distance and how much sighting to put into it. He called it:

              "Seeing what you need to see, to make the shot you need to make".

              Which is kinda like the defensive shooting version of METT-TC or "it depends".
              The Lion Does Not Turn Around When the Small Dog Barks

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              • #22
                Dunno

                All this aim here, aim there stuff seems, to me at least, to be overly optimistic in terms of SELF DEFENSE

                self-defense

                [self-di-fens, self-]
                noun

                the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant:

                Looking at the definition, "the act of defending one's person when physically attacked"

                Seems to me if we are under attack, clubs hitting, knives cutting, bullets flying and all the accompanying, bleeding, pain, fear, panic, anger, adrenaline dump, movement, etc., the idea of accuracy (aiming to a particular place) and/or precision is little more than a fantasy
                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ricco View Post
                  Dunno

                  All this aim here, aim there stuff seems, to me at least, to be overly optimistic in terms of SELF DEFENSE

                  self-defense


                  [self-di-fens, self-]
                  noun

                  the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant:

                  Looking at the definition, "the act of defending one's person when physically attacked"

                  Seems to me if we are under attack, clubs hitting, knives cutting, bullets flying and all the accompanying, bleeding, pain, fear, panic, anger, adrenaline dump, movement, etc., the idea of accuracy (aiming to a particular place) and/or precision is little more than a fantasy
                  Ive never been in a civilian use of lethal force type event which I take pride in but I have been in a handful of events where the use of lethal force was a thing. Though the context was different and there was a ting of anticipation, we were out looking for contact, you might be surprised.

                  One thing I like about utilizing the locking of joints and muscle tension is it's extremely and easily repeatable. It's very mechanical and not complex at all. So when the brain is tweaking due to overwhelming stress these are grosser motor skills we can rely on to get those hits. Shooting is easy AF if we understand and utilize these things. Science

                  Edit: I was involved in one use of lethal force event as high school kid while sitting in P.E. On its 2nd lap through the parking lot the occupants in a car opened fire on us. Semi auto fire only but still startling none the less. It was interesting to see the varying reactions from those around me. Yuma had a serious gang problem.
                  Last edited by mjkeat; 03-13-2019, 15:50.
                  Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                    Ive never been in a civilian use of lethal force type event which I take pride in but I have been in a handful of events where the use of lethal force was a thing. Though the context was different and there was a ting of anticipation, we were out looking for contact, you might be surprised.

                    One thing I like about utilizing the locking of joints and muscle tension is it's extremely and easily repeatable. It's very mechanical and not complex at all. So when the brain is tweaking due to overwhelming stress these are grosser motor skills we can rely on to get those hits. Shooting is easy AF if we understand and utilize these things. Science

                    Edit: I was involved in one use of lethal force event as high school kid while sitting in P.E. On its 2nd lap through the parking lot the occupants in a car opened fire on us. Semi auto fire only but still startling none the less. It was interesting to see the varying reactions from those around me. Yuma had a serious gang problem.
                    Dunno

                    I just have a hard time believing that if you're being stabbed in the guts or being hit about the head and shoulders with a piece of pipe if accurate aiming is much of a possibility
                    Last edited by ricco; 03-13-2019, 16:14.
                    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ricco View Post

                      Dunno

                      I just have a hard time believing that if you're being stabbed in the guts or being hit about the head and shoulders with a piece of pipe if accurate aiming is much of a possibility
                      Doesn't it all depend on what we designate as the target area?

                      Plus, shouldn't we be trying to stop the stabbing or striking of the pipe, control, first? It's likely to be our natural reaction anyway regardless of what Mr. Just Choot'em claims.
                      Last edited by mjkeat; 03-13-2019, 16:21.
                      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                      • #26
                        This where we have to differentiate between "attack" and "threat"

                        "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                        "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ricco View Post
                          This where we have to differentiate between "attack" and "threat"
                          I see an attack(er) as a threat and a threat as an attack(er). May we be dealing with semantics at this point?
                          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                            I see an attack(er) as a threat and a threat as an attack(er). May we be dealing with semantics at this point?
                            You walk to your car in the dimly lighted parking lot, a BG steps out of shadows points a knife toward your throat, "Gimme your money or I'll....", is a threat and we have have several options

                            Same environment but this time there is no "or I'll" and the knife is headed for your throat, is an attack, there are fewer options

                            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ricco View Post

                              You walk to your car in the dimly lighted parking lot, a BG steps out of shadows points a knife toward your throat, "Gimme your money or I'll....", is a threat and we have have several options

                              Same environment but this time there is no "or I'll" and the knife is headed for your throat, is an attack, there are fewer options
                              I see what you're saying and don't disagree with you. I guess I see both as an attack and a threat to my life.
                              Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                                I see what you're saying and don't disagree with you. I guess I see both as an attack and a threat to my life.
                                And this brings us back to "accuracy" is relative

                                What is considered accurate when shooting a piece of paper on the square range is different than what is accurate when defending yourself from a pyscho with a knife in the dimly lighted parking lot


                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                                Now we can look at "precision vs accuracy"

                                From Labwrite,

                                Accuracy refers to the closeness of a measured value to a standard or known value. For example, if in lab you obtain a weight measurement of 3.2 kg for a given substance, but the actual or known weight is 10 kg, then your measurement is not accurate. In this case, your measurement is not close to the known value.

                                Precision refers to the closeness of two or more measurements to each other. Using the example above, if you weigh a given substance five times, and get 3.2 kg each time, then your measurement is very precise. Precision is independent of accuracy. You can be very precise but inaccurate, as described above. You can also be accurate but imprecise.



                                Precision has little or nothing to do with self defense

                                As mjkeat wrote, "Combat Accuracy is any shot that significantly effects the targets ability to present a lethal threat even if momentarily. This can include a missed shot if it causes the target to end it's attack or momentarily stop presenting a lethal threat. Is that not different than accuracy?"
                                Last edited by ricco; 03-14-2019, 02:48.
                                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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