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  • Ace
    started a topic Accuracy vs Precision

    Accuracy vs Precision

    Subject came up in a discussion a while back, started with application in hunting, moved on to defensive situations. Some interesting points were made. Thought it might be a fun subject here.

    So, thoughts? How does accuracy and\or precision apply in your world? Hunting, target, defensive applications? Ace2

  • Ace
    replied
    Thanks all for the input; some pretty good discussion for the most part.

    In the original conversation that prompted me to post the question here, we were talking about accuracy vs precision in the context (oh, that word!) of hunting, then it moved into the defense area. We didn't get into the dictionary definition of the terms, more the practical application 'in the field'. We basically came to the conclusion that, in simple terms, 'accuracy' would be being able to hit the target--deer, pig, bad guy, whatever--in a location that would be reasonably expected to cause the desired result, ie: the deer or pig or elk being shot through the ribs would cause a humane kill, with the animal going down reasonably quickly, making for a non-laborious recovery (hopefully, if it ran some distance before going down, it would be towards the truck or into a spot where we could drive up to it). In the case of a bad guy, hits would be generally through the ribs, causing lots of bleeding and collapsing the lung(s), which would limit the oxygen getting to the brain so the brain would be unable to command the body to continue the attack. In both cases, if fortune should direct the bullet(s) to the spine/CNS and cause instant incapacitation, so much the better--although in most hunting scenarios, trying for the spine isn't such a wise choice. In both cases, the target area would be larger than that for 'precise' shots; we can argue exactly how many inches on different species, but that's for a coffee-n-doughnut discussion.

    'Precision' would be more along the line of being able to place the bullet in a much smaller, carefully chosen spot on the critter or bad guy. For example, there are times when I choose to do head shots on pigs; they have to be close enough that I feel comfortable with the particular gun I'm using, the gun has to be capable of hitting tiny spots on command, the pig needs to be standing broadside and stationary; if that all falls into place, shooting them through the ears (kinda like good advice here on this site, in one ear and out the other) makes for no tracking and not much dragging. In the case of the bad guy, IF the situation allows, being able to pick the shirt button or nose/eyeball or side-to-side ear shot, knowing the weapon in play is capable of such accuracy/precision, and the shooter's ability are up to it, then 'precision' would come into play.

    So simply put, for our (the people who were involved in the original conversation) criteria for 'accuracy' came down to being able to call the shot(s) into a larger area than the criteria for 'precise' shots---accuracy is being able to put your shots into an 'area' (size of which depends on the target), precision being able to put your shot on a specific spot within that 'area'.

    Again, thanks for the input. It has been really interesting---and there really weren't any right or wrong answers. Ace2
    Last edited by Ace; 03-17-2019, 22:45.

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by Ace View Post
    Doesn't Yuma still have the State Prison, for those interested in higher education? Ace2
    The Marine base?

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ChiefPlumber View Post

    I couldn't resist this...everybody at Yuma high school is a criminal.
    There were quit a a few for sure. I saw teachers and admin get beat up, a group of us (5 whites) were jumped by 10 to 15 Hispanics. One dude got it fairly bad, bruised/broken ribs and a broken nose. Gang fights were often. Good for the soul.

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  • Ace
    replied
    Doesn't Yuma still have the State Prison, for those interested in higher education? Ace2

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  • ChiefPlumber
    replied
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

    Edit: I was involved in one use of lethal force event as high school kid while sitting in P.E. On its 2nd lap through the parking lot the occupants in a car opened fire on us. Semi auto fire only but still startling none the less. It was interesting to see the varying reactions from those around me. Yuma had a serious gang problem.
    I couldn't resist this...everybody at Yuma high school is a criminal.

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  • ricco
    replied
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

    I see what you're saying and don't disagree with you. I guess I see both as an attack and a threat to my life.
    And this brings us back to "accuracy" is relative

    What is considered accurate when shooting a piece of paper on the square range is different than what is accurate when defending yourself from a pyscho with a knife in the dimly lighted parking lot


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Now we can look at "precision vs accuracy"

    From Labwrite,

    Accuracy refers to the closeness of a measured value to a standard or known value. For example, if in lab you obtain a weight measurement of 3.2 kg for a given substance, but the actual or known weight is 10 kg, then your measurement is not accurate. In this case, your measurement is not close to the known value.

    Precision refers to the closeness of two or more measurements to each other. Using the example above, if you weigh a given substance five times, and get 3.2 kg each time, then your measurement is very precise. Precision is independent of accuracy. You can be very precise but inaccurate, as described above. You can also be accurate but imprecise.



    Precision has little or nothing to do with self defense

    As mjkeat wrote, "Combat Accuracy is any shot that significantly effects the targets ability to present a lethal threat even if momentarily. This can include a missed shot if it causes the target to end it's attack or momentarily stop presenting a lethal threat. Is that not different than accuracy?"
    Last edited by ricco; 03-14-2019, 02:48.

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post

    You walk to your car in the dimly lighted parking lot, a BG steps out of shadows points a knife toward your throat, "Gimme your money or I'll....", is a threat and we have have several options

    Same environment but this time there is no "or I'll" and the knife is headed for your throat, is an attack, there are fewer options
    I see what you're saying and don't disagree with you. I guess I see both as an attack and a threat to my life.

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  • ricco
    replied
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

    I see an attack(er) as a threat and a threat as an attack(er). May we be dealing with semantics at this point?
    You walk to your car in the dimly lighted parking lot, a BG steps out of shadows points a knife toward your throat, "Gimme your money or I'll....", is a threat and we have have several options

    Same environment but this time there is no "or I'll" and the knife is headed for your throat, is an attack, there are fewer options

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post
    This where we have to differentiate between "attack" and "threat"
    I see an attack(er) as a threat and a threat as an attack(er). May we be dealing with semantics at this point?

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  • ricco
    replied
    This where we have to differentiate between "attack" and "threat"

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post

    Dunno

    I just have a hard time believing that if you're being stabbed in the guts or being hit about the head and shoulders with a piece of pipe if accurate aiming is much of a possibility
    Doesn't it all depend on what we designate as the target area?

    Plus, shouldn't we be trying to stop the stabbing or striking of the pipe, control, first? It's likely to be our natural reaction anyway regardless of what Mr. Just Choot'em claims.
    Last edited by mjkeat; 03-13-2019, 16:21.

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  • ricco
    replied
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

    Ive never been in a civilian use of lethal force type event which I take pride in but I have been in a handful of events where the use of lethal force was a thing. Though the context was different and there was a ting of anticipation, we were out looking for contact, you might be surprised.

    One thing I like about utilizing the locking of joints and muscle tension is it's extremely and easily repeatable. It's very mechanical and not complex at all. So when the brain is tweaking due to overwhelming stress these are grosser motor skills we can rely on to get those hits. Shooting is easy AF if we understand and utilize these things. Science

    Edit: I was involved in one use of lethal force event as high school kid while sitting in P.E. On its 2nd lap through the parking lot the occupants in a car opened fire on us. Semi auto fire only but still startling none the less. It was interesting to see the varying reactions from those around me. Yuma had a serious gang problem.
    Dunno

    I just have a hard time believing that if you're being stabbed in the guts or being hit about the head and shoulders with a piece of pipe if accurate aiming is much of a possibility
    Last edited by ricco; 03-13-2019, 16:14.

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  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post
    Dunno

    All this aim here, aim there stuff seems, to me at least, to be overly optimistic in terms of SELF DEFENSE

    self-defense


    [self-di-fens, self-]
    noun

    the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant:

    Looking at the definition, "the act of defending one's person when physically attacked"

    Seems to me if we are under attack, clubs hitting, knives cutting, bullets flying and all the accompanying, bleeding, pain, fear, panic, anger, adrenaline dump, movement, etc., the idea of accuracy (aiming to a particular place) and/or precision is little more than a fantasy
    Ive never been in a civilian use of lethal force type event which I take pride in but I have been in a handful of events where the use of lethal force was a thing. Though the context was different and there was a ting of anticipation, we were out looking for contact, you might be surprised.

    One thing I like about utilizing the locking of joints and muscle tension is it's extremely and easily repeatable. It's very mechanical and not complex at all. So when the brain is tweaking due to overwhelming stress these are grosser motor skills we can rely on to get those hits. Shooting is easy AF if we understand and utilize these things. Science

    Edit: I was involved in one use of lethal force event as high school kid while sitting in P.E. On its 2nd lap through the parking lot the occupants in a car opened fire on us. Semi auto fire only but still startling none the less. It was interesting to see the varying reactions from those around me. Yuma had a serious gang problem.
    Last edited by mjkeat; 03-13-2019, 15:50.

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  • ricco
    replied
    Dunno

    All this aim here, aim there stuff seems, to me at least, to be overly optimistic in terms of SELF DEFENSE

    self-defense

    [self-di-fens, self-]
    noun

    the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant:

    Looking at the definition, "the act of defending one's person when physically attacked"

    Seems to me if we are under attack, clubs hitting, knives cutting, bullets flying and all the accompanying, bleeding, pain, fear, panic, anger, adrenaline dump, movement, etc., the idea of accuracy (aiming to a particular place) and/or precision is little more than a fantasy

    Leave a comment:

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