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"When Should/Can I Use Deadly Force?"

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  • "When Should/Can I Use Deadly Force?"

    In light of the recent Drekja parking space incident a little refresher on when the CCW can/cannot use deadly force

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX0Lpehn29E&t=1s
    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

  • #2
    Without even looking at what Branca has to say, I'll say that it can be used only when you are 1), innocent and 2),when you are in imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury.

    All right, I'll see if Branca agrees with me.
    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.
    I don't know why I'm better with revolvers, keat so please stop asking.

    Comment


    • #3
      Was I right? It seemed to me like Branca says essentially what I just did, but he goes more into the aftermath. One thing I do wonder about (and I did not pick up on this,mostly due to my hearing) was, is it a good idea or not to say that the act was in self-defense but no further statements will be made until after consultation with a lawyer.
      Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
      The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.
      I don't know why I'm better with revolvers, keat so please stop asking.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
        Was I right? It seemed to me like Branca says essentially what I just did, but he goes more into the aftermath. One thing I do wonder about (and I did not pick up on this,mostly due to my hearing) was, is it a good idea or not to say that the act was in self-defense but no further statements will be made until after consultation with a lawyer.
        Not that it matters much but the lawyer Correia was talking with is Mark Victor not Branca

        Anyway, the first thing they talked talked about was kinda interesting, a person does a robbery, he draws his pistol, waves it around but then put's it away

        They talked just a little about not using deadly force over property

        They talk some about Mens Rea, I didn't know there was 4 types of Mens Rea, they also touched on Actus Reus

        An yes of course, don't talk to the police, he is a lawyer that is the general rule



        "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

        "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

        Comment


        • #5
          All right, thank you; damn hearing.

          Mens Rea, of course is the criminal State of mind, AKA intent, and the Actus Reus being the act itself. Together they form the corpus delecti or 'the body of the crime'.

          Not talking to the police will not make them happy. With this in mind, I am reminded of something that Massad Ayoob said: let the cops know that you are not a punk hiding behind the 5th Amendment and after you consult with a lawyer, you might give them a statement, AND THEN SHUT UP UNTIL YOUR LAWYER GETS THERE!!

          ricco, you might find taking a course in criminal law interesting. I took one many many moons ago and did quite well in a class full of working cops.
          Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
          The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.
          I don't know why I'm better with revolvers, keat so please stop asking.

          Comment


          • #6
            A reasoale fear of death or great bodily arm [ such as being stabbed or shot, beaten with clubs, fist or feet, etc ] and your using lethal force is reasonable when conditions are explained to a jury.
            A big body builder vs. a man in a wheelchair or a woman introduces disparity of force. Again a reasonable person is te judge.

            https://ag.ks.gov/docs/documents/sel...rsn=516a2f2b_4

            The Kansas statures are fairly clear and could be a model for all 50 states. But there are many states with more restrictive laws. Then each court and jury will vary.
            Your choice of lawyer and what you say in the first police contact matter a great deal.
            A cellphone so you can be the first caller to 911. Police very often consider the first caller to be the victim.

            Gie your name, and invoke a lawyer before makig any statement. Remember there are security cameras almost everywhere. Wht ever you say will be cross checked with other witnesses and video.

            Say nothing more than your name and that you were afraid for your life [ or another's ] and ask for your lawyer.

            The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
            If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
            I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

            Comment


            • #7
              "Reasonable", that's squishy word isn't it

              What is reasonable for some might not be reasonable for others

              For instance, I thought it was reasonable for Zimmerman to use deadly force but the Prosecutor didn't

              Also, Drejka thought deadly force was reasonable, the Sheriff agreed but the Prosecutor didn't


              Cambridge English Dictionary

              1. based on or using good judgment and therefore fair and practical:


              Black's Law Dictionary

              Agreeable to reason; just; proper.


              Looking at two definitions we see nothing hard and and fast, all of the words used to describe reasonable are really nothing more than opinion

              "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

              "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

              Comment


              • #8


                delete
                Last edited by ricco; 08-31-2019, 13:50.
                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
                  All right, thank you; damn hearing.

                  Mens Rea, of course is the criminal State of mind, AKA intent, and the Actus Reus being the act itself. Together they form the corpus delecti or 'the body of the crime'.

                  Not talking to the police will not make them happy. With this in mind, I am reminded of something that Massad Ayoob said: let the cops know that you are not a punk hiding behind the 5th Amendment and after you consult with a lawyer, you might give them a statement, AND THEN SHUT UP UNTIL YOUR LAWYER GETS THERE!!

                  ricco, you might find taking a course in criminal law interesting. I took one many many moons ago and did quite well in a class full of working cops.

                  There are 4 types of Mens Rea (guilty mind)

                  Cornell Law School
                  1. acting purposely - the defendant had an underlying conscious object to act
                  2. acting knowingly - the defendant is practically certain that the conduct will cause a particular result
                  3. acting recklessly - The defendant consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustified risk
                  4. acting negligently - The defendant was not aware of the risk, but should have been aware of the risk
                  Using the above, if a person does something wrong even sometimes unintentionally one of the 4 will apply

                  If I could find a class only on "Use of Force" law I would take it, unfortunately if such a class exits I don't know where it is

                  When I did Ayoob's LFI1 class maybe half the class was lawyers and cops, I'm sure it was the same for you, and when he ask for their opinion of the class there was unanimous agreement that Use of Force was more thoroughly covered than in either law school or at the academy so at least that's a plus
                  "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                  "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You, Macklin and I probably know as much about SD law as many lawyers.This is not intended as a slam against lawyers as I don't believe that SD is used all that often as a defense and so a lot of attorney's are not that up on it. After all, their clients are not usually upstanding citizens; they're scumbags who are almost always guilty as hell.
                    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.
                    I don't know why I'm better with revolvers, keat so please stop asking.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a criminal lawyer, and would much rather him represent me if needed than any of you. I am more worried about a jury than my lawyer not being up to speed in time for trial.
                      Originally posted by kscardsfan
                      Grain of salt hell, I'm taking it with a salt block from the feed store. Thats a big bunch of crap there.




                      QUOTE=mjkeat;n1101496]****ing stupid.[/QUOTE]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Your reputation and what you say matters. ANYTHING you've said can and will be used in a trial. That is not just what you said to the police and other investigators in the hours and says after a SD incident, but what ever you've posted anywhere on the Internet or "liked."
                        You need to get a lawyer before answering any questions, even if you're a lawyer.
                        Cops have unions and lawyers. The system does not want to convict a LEO.
                        But DAs and many cops want to pile up convictions and close cases.

                        Do all you can to avoid needing to use the gun on your hip. Never be offended by other's comments. If they say "you're a coward" ignote it. If they say your wife is "hot" reply "I think so too!"
                        Leave if you can. Don't make any gestures or say anything insulting.

                        The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
                        If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
                        I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
                          You, Macklin and I probably know as much about SD law as many lawyers.This is not intended as a slam against lawyers as I don't believe that SD is used all that often as a defense and so a lot of attorney's are not that up on it. After all, their clients are not usually upstanding citizens; they're scumbags who are almost always guilty as hell.
                          As we saw in the Drejka trial, because Drejka mentioned the 21 foot "rule", yes most of us know it isn't a "rule", the prosecutor used it against him by bringing in a Use Of Force expert who said it was referring to EDGED WEAPONS thereby discounting Drejka's understanding of the Tueller Drill. Drejka's attorney wasn't up to speed and let it slip by

                          Had Drejka's attorney understood the term she could have made better use of the defense's Use Of Force expert

                          As we have talked on the forum numerous times, the more you know the more help you can be to your attorney, you have to play a part in your defense
                          Last edited by ricco; 09-01-2019, 16:32.
                          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Defense attorney Theresa Jean-Pierre Coy defends Michael Drejka in Florida's Pinellas County. Police initially declined to arrest Mr. Drejka after he killed an unarmed black man in an argument over a parking space. Forcing the state to prove its case protects all Americans, especially those in heavily policed minority communities, says Ms. Jean-Pierre Coy, who received some criticism for her decision to defend Mr. Drejka.


                            He got what he paid for.

                            I will Iíll trust my attorney more than any Google Lawyerin for Dummies post.

                            I am in the presence Super Ninja Legal Eagles.
                            Originally posted by kscardsfan
                            Grain of salt hell, I'm taking it with a salt block from the feed store. Thats a big bunch of crap there.




                            QUOTE=mjkeat;n1101496]****ing stupid.[/QUOTE]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Someone flash GMC the Batsign.
                              Originally posted by kscardsfan
                              Grain of salt hell, I'm taking it with a salt block from the feed store. Thats a big bunch of crap there.




                              QUOTE=mjkeat;n1101496]****ing stupid.[/QUOTE]

                              Comment

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