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  • "Toss The Timer"

    Leatham and Pincus on the value of using a timer for self defense practice



    https://www.facebook.com/Springfield...5198812209425/
    Last edited by ricco; 08-05-2017, 15:43.
    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

  • #2
    The Robs have been putting out some great stuff.
    Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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    • #3
      Excellent

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      • #4
        Gun fights rarely begin with a beep.
        The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
        If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
        I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

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        • #5
          Nice video, but I use the chit out of a timer, and no I'm not tossing it anytime soon.

          It comes in handy for working standardized drills (operative word standardized) to work improvement on the time component. I can't tell you how many defensive shooters I've gotten to observe that thought they were good, but could be timed with an hour glass.

          For the Pincus style "cognitive" drills a timer is useless because non are "standardized" such as a Bill Drill, El Presidente, 2x2x2 Drill and the FAST Drill. I run several Pincus drills (figure 8 for example) and they do have their place, but so do the timed drills when you're working on speed AND accuracy.

          Chuck

          homo homini lupus est

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          • #6
            The timer is a conversation piece as is the numbers displayed on it. It's a piece of kit that looks cool on a belt. Not saying it's without value as some get off on it but... There's value in that I guess. I personally don't see a need to drag along the extra piece of gear. Then again I don't see a lot of value in timed drills. Speed and Accuracy? Those can be improved upon during more valuable cognitive focused drills such as the Fig. 8 and so on. That isolated stuff is wasteful. Why not work on it all simultaneously.

            As long as you're pushing yourself as hard as you can you will likely be going as fast as you can. You can only go as fast as you can go. Do that repetitively and you can only get faster.
            Last edited by mjkeat; 08-06-2017, 20:25.
            Failure is an opportunity to learn.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chuck R. View Post
              I can't tell you how many defensive shooters I've gotten to observe that thought they were good, but could be timed with an hour glass.

              Chuck
              ^^ yes ^^

              Skewed video anyway. Competition scenarios are "choreographed"? Basically, so was this. Big Rob hadn't done it before. Bald Rob had. Advantage Bald Rob.

              I'd​ like to see them run it again...with a timer..lol. Big Rob would probably smoke him now that he knows the parameters and after watching Bald Rob. Yes...even with the unknown targets and unknown hits required. There is always some questions and confusion presented with a "new to you" game or training exercise. You SHOULD improve with repetition. They are still just targets in a bay. So what if they pop up at random. You still know ahead of time they're gonna pop up. You still know ahead of time you're gonna have to shoot them till they're down. Ohhh...stress! Now add a timer and try to beat the other guy. More induced stress. Nothing wrong with that.

              Don't get me wrong. I love these targets. Put them in a game... I'd love to shoot a target more than "two on each". I also like these two guys getting together and showing the training groups and the competition groups aren't as far apart as some folks wish they were.
              "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war." Ernest Hemingway

              Comment


              • #8
                Everything has a time component

                What the Robs did was a drill, it was not a fight

                If it were a fight and all parties involved had guns chances are both Robs would be dead

                Let's not make more out of it than it is


                Sometimes I use a timer, sometimes I don't, just depends on what I'm doing
                Last edited by ricco; 08-07-2017, 01:38.
                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jagdawg View Post
                  Skewed video anyway. Competition scenarios are "choreographed"? Basically, so was this. Big Rob hadn't done it before. Bald Rob had. Advantage Bald Rob.
                  Let's look at this. What does it show us? Two guys, both competent with a handgun. Why the difference in approach to the same problem.


                  Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Big Rob. Shooting on the move...off the "X"..at an angle. Targets presented were not right beside each other. Spread out. Took a few extra ticks to locate targets spread out.

                    Bald Rob. Moved in front of each target and literally camped out as he was shooting. Moved when he had to reload. Targets presented were closer - as in right beside each other. Easier to pick up in his periphery.

                    Roughly only .55 seconds difference? Like Rico said. Its a drill. If real..they'd likely be dead or shot. However, which one of them made themselves a tougher target to hit? Then again...he's a bigger guy...bigger target...easier to hit.

                    So many factors....

                    Do it again now that Big Rob has experienced it once and he smokes him. Yes..of course he's going to change his approach. He'll "game it" and camp out in front of each one like Bald Rob did.

                    ​​​​​​​Always thought you were supposed to GOTX...and shoot on the move for better chance at survival. Apparently Rob assumed that's the way he was supposed to solve the puzzle. Funny..as much crap is given for folks shooting targets squared away and not moving..you know...static....that's exactly what Bald Rob did. He just moved directly in front of each one beforehand.
                    "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war." Ernest Hemingway

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would like to see the set up run with 3D targets

                      2D target make you move in way that you wouldn't have to in real life
                      "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                      "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Agreed.
                        "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war." Ernest Hemingway

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jagdawg View Post
                          Big Rob. Shooting on the move...off the "X"..at an angle. Targets presented were not right beside each other. Spread out. Took a few extra ticks to locate targets spread out.

                          Bald Rob. Moved in front of each target and literally camped out as he was shooting. Moved when he had to reload. Targets presented were closer - as in right beside each other. Easier to pick up in his periphery.

                          Roughly only .55 seconds difference? Like Rico said. Its a drill. If real..they'd likely be dead or shot. However, which one of them made themselves a tougher target to hit? Then again...he's a bigger guy...bigger target...easier to hit.

                          So many factors....

                          Do it again now that Big Rob has experienced it once and he smokes him. Yes..of course he's going to change his approach. He'll "game it" and camp out in front of each one like Bald Rob did.

                          ​​​​​​​Always thought you were supposed to GOTX...and shoot on the move for better chance at survival. Apparently Rob assumed that's the way he was supposed to solve the puzzle. Funny..as much crap is given for folks shooting targets squared away and not moving..you know...static....that's exactly what Bald Rob did. He just moved directly in front of each one beforehand.
                          What's the most stable platform in which to shoot?

                          What angle creates the most drastic change in relationship between two objects?
                          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bringing it back to this particular drill. Leatham says, "Time is irrelevant"

                            All the video is trying to say is to not become a slave to the "timer" for SELF DEFENSE practice

                            The time that it takes to run a COF in competition has little to do with how BG's might attack

                            If you do the drill as Leatham did at the beginning of the video, a 2.27, and believe you can take out three BG's in 2.27, that is wrong headed thinking and could get you on trouble out in the world

                            To say that a timer has no value is also wrong, as an example, if it takes me 5 seconds to draw my pistol from concealment and get on target my mechanics suck and I have a problem don't I, if I don't know how piss poor my mechanics are I can't fix the problem

                            I will add, this is where video is also useful. We can see while we are still at the range what we are doing wrong and correct it before it becomes ingrained

                            For SELF DEFENSE, timers are just tools we use to guage the efficiency of our mechanics but play no role in decision making when dealing with animate opponents

                            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=mjkeat;n1086508]

                              What's the most stable platform in which to shoot?

                              What angle creates the most drastic change in relationship between two objects?/QUOTE]

                              1) Prone. Or bench. Yeah, let's go with bench.
                              2) Downward, or upward.

                              (Don't waste your time. I don't care...)



                              "Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war." Ernest Hemingway

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