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"A Serious Learning Moment"

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  • "A Serious Learning Moment"

    Using non-combatants for concealment

    Thoughts?


    https://youtu.be/zF4orVyUNiI
    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

  • #2
    I'm going to mention some things for the sake of conversation. They don't neccessarily reflect my actual opinion or preference:

    Dave mentions that one cannot use *non-combatants (not sure if I agree with the use of that word) for cover or concealment. Why not? Why are they non-combatants? Theyve had every opportunity to prepare that we have. Are we morally or legally obligated to not use stander-bys waiting to die for cover or conceal while we attempt to save our own life? Wouldn't it increase our survival? Is that such a bad idea? We the collective have discussed using people to shield/disguise our draw, why not to conceal our position while we put rounds in a mass shooter. If its an active shooter people are dying amyway. The faster the shooter dies the better and safer everyone is. The lower the risk of injury or death the better. How clear does a shot have to be? Is a clear shot not a clear shot regardless of how large or small the cushion for error is if we've put in the work on the range? Do i give a **** about thier comfort as they stand idle. Of course most will be running around trying to get to safety. But in the drill the simulated people were stationary.

    If we've drawn the shooters attention by shooti.g at them are they not going to track is and simultaneously shoot at us while we run back and fourth through people? This isn't the fantasy cops and robbers or the high noon shootout where the BG doesn't shoot back when innocent people are in the way. The mass shooter doesn't care. In fact their purpose is to kill anyone and everyone.

    Not sure who actually recommended it and not sure if this was a CCW targeted course, I thought the narrator mentioned it was, but why advance on a threat? Do we have to advance on a threat in order to gain superiority or a better angle of attack? Not at all.
    Last edited by mjkeat; 08-09-2017, 20:28.
    Failure is an opportunity to learn.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mjkeat View Post
      I'm going to mention some things for the sake of conversation. They don't neccessarily reflect my actual opinion or preference:

      Dave mentions that one cannot use *non-combatants (not sure if I agree with the use of that word) for cover or concealment. Why not? Why are they non-combatants? Theyve had every opportunity to prepare that we have. Are we morally or legally obligated to not use stander-bys waiting to die for cover or conceal while we attempt to save our own life? Wouldn't it increase our survival? Is that such a bad idea? We the collective have discussed using people to shield/disguise our draw, why not to conceal our position while we put rounds in a mass shooter. If its an active shooter people are dying amyway. The faster the shooter dies the better and safer everyone is. The lower the risk of injury or death the better. How clear does a shot have to be? Is a clear shot not a clear shot regardless of how large or small the cushion for error is if we've put in the work on the range? Do i give a **** about thier comfort as they stand idle. Of course most will be running around trying to get to safety. But in the drill the simulated people were stationary.

      If we've drawn the shooters attention by shooti.g at them are they not going to track is and simultaneously shoot at us while we run back and fourth through people? This isn't the fantasy cops and robbers or the high noon shootout where the BG doesn't shoot back when innocent people are in the way. The mass shooter doesn't care. In fact their purpose is to kill anyone and everyone.

      Not sure who actually recommended it and not sure if this was a CCW targeted course, I thought the narrator mentioned it was, but why advance on a threat? Do we have to advance on a threat in order to gain superiority or a better angle of attack? Not at all.
      My thinking as well


      Did anyone else notice how out of breath the student was, he might have been in very poor physical condition but I think probably it was the stress he put himself under

      That raises the question, if the stress of a drill caused this problem what would occur in real life
      "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

      "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

      Comment


      • #4
        My opinion is when faced with a life threatening situation, many people will use any and all advantages that they would normally swear they wouldn't to include using innocent bystanders as cover if the opportunity presents itself.

        Having 10-12 stationary bystanders to maneuver around during an active shooter situation certainly would be bizarre based on the videos I have watched over the years.

        I also thought Spaulding contradicted himself a time or two in that video as well.
        Last edited by ckfarris; 08-10-2017, 01:18.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ricco View Post

          My thinking as well


          Did anyone else notice how out of breath the student was, he might have been in very poor physical condition but I think probably it was the stress he put himself under

          That raises the question, if the stress of a drill caused this problem what would occur in real life
          It's a good question. Think about its effects on a person's ability to perform. It would cause a huge reduction in performance. Of course some of this, increased heart rate etc. can help but there is definitely a point where to much adrenalin is detrimental, physically and mentally. I think we saw it here.

          I'm guess by the way they talked that the students were instructed on how to run the drill before actually doing so but didn't. Why? Well part of it surely had to do with the physiological effects of stress; false memory, loss of memory, decreased motor control, increased visual acuity in the center of the field of vision, and so on.

          Could he have decreased the effects of those things if he were in better physical condition. Probably so.
          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

          Comment

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