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  • Defensive Scenarios

    The scenario presented here is from ConcealedNation.

    http://concealednation.org/2015/04/c...two-scenarios/

    Youíve just pumped gas and are walking into the gas station to buy a candy bar and a soda. As youíre walking back outside, you see a man opening your driver-side door of your vehicle that is still at the pump. Heís wearing shorts and a t-shirt, and you donít see any visible weapons. He looks to be about 50 lbs heavier than you, 4-5 inches taller, and roughly the same age. You are about 50 feet away and heís just sitting down in the seat. You can see him fumbling around inside, and you assume heís looking for keys or valuables. Every single pump at the station is occupied, so many people are in the immediate area. What do you do?
    If this happens to me, I'll very likely have my truck keys with me. While I might leave the key in the ignition while the gas pump is running, I remove them when I am away from the vehicle. I am also something of a fanatic about having my cell phone with me. My first act is to call the police in. If the guy leaves, fine; I'll give the cops as good a description as I can.

    One thing I won't do is draw my handgun or even let anyone know that I have it, at least at that point in time. When the police arrive, I'll let them know as a courtesy I give them as complete a description of the guy as I can, and they perform their function. I cooperate with the police as much as I can.

    Would anyone here do anything different?
    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

  • #2
    From the same website, this scenario is presented.

    Itís 11pm on a Friday night and youíre inside your home watching a movie with your family. For the purposes of this scenario, you are home with your wife/husband and two children, aged 3 and 5 (yes, the kids are still up). You hear a very loud knock at the front door. As you get up off the couch, you see a shadow figure walk past your back window. Someone else continues to knock loudly at your door. What do you do?
    In a case like this, the front door is a decoy/diversion so the guy in the back is free to make his move. First thing I'd do is gather the family together in the master bedroom, while calling for help. Remember the cell phone? Since I have my gun with me I won't have to get it,

    Once you have your family secured, let the police do their job, and stay put. The chances are they won't know you, so don't try to search the house yourself. Stay on the line. The police might need to ask you questions and also to let you know that the area is secured, and that you can safely leave the bedroom. Don't come out with a gun in your hand.

    Anything else?

    Now, if the BG's try to force their way in, and get at you or your family, it becomes a whole different ball of wax. Again, stay on the line. Assume the call is recorded. If they try to force their way in to your safe area, you will llkely be entirely justified in using deadly force in response. Get behind your bed, as the mattress will give a small degree of cover and concealment. If the BG has a weapon visible, shoot him. Don't warn him and don't try to be fair. Reload your gun if possible. If the other BG wants to continue the conflict, deal with him in the same manner.

    Now, obviously this scenario will vary depending on such factors as the layout of your home, and is intended as a general guide only.

    Thoughts?
    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

    Comment


    • #3
      Just got back from an encounter with two pizza-men, the evil intent in their black hearts was obvious. I varied in double tapping one and trple tapping another, as their intent to do me harm was there to see. Your hero emerged victorious once more.

      Okay, seriously: about 100 or so rounds went into both pizza men and like in my fanciful tale above, I alternated between double taps on one and triple taps on the other, coming back to the first one because he still presented a threat. The scenario was a robbery, with one man facing me and the other off to my left at a right angle to the first one. The distance was about 3 yards for the one facing me and about four yards for the other bad guy to my left..

      All drawing was from concealment and the gun was my 686 with Hogue Bantam grips. The shooting was mostly point shooting, as under these circumstances, (very close range, and very limited time constraints) sighted fire was not, in my judgment, needed, and acquiring even a rudimentary sight picture could have taken too much time. A judgment call on my part, but I think a good one.

      One thought that just ocurred to me: would the use of hollowpoint or other expanding type of bullets not penetrate enough to reach the spine? Or would they be likely to stop before they reach the spine, inflicting a fatal but not instantly-stopping wound? In other words, the BG would bleed out, but this could take several seconds, and while you're waiting for him to drop, he could still do some damage. Valid consideration or not?
      Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
      The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
        One thought that just ocurred to me: would the use of hollowpoint or other expanding type of bullets not penetrate enough to reach the spine? Or would they be likely to stop before they reach the spine, inflicting a fatal but not instantly-stopping wound? In other words, the BG would bleed out, but this could take several seconds, and while you're waiting for him to drop, he could still do some damage. Valid consideration or not?
        With modern defensive ammo you should be good to go. The majority of defensive ammo has been was designed to meet FBI testing protocols that came about after the infamous Miami shootout in 86. So the most will get 12-14" of penetration through various clothing and barricade materials. Want to better your odds, carry SD ammo that is marketed towards LE and have published performance data. I prefer Speer Gold Dots for this reason.

        here's a decent site that has data for Speer and Federal Premium against FBI testing protocols:

        http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammun...n/default.aspx

        Chuck

        homo homini lupus est

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
          The scenario presented here is from ConcealedNation.

          http://concealednation.org/2015/04/c...two-scenarios/



          If this happens to me, I'll very likely have my truck keys with me. While I might leave the key in the ignition while the gas pump is running, I remove them when I am away from the vehicle. I am also something of a fanatic about having my cell phone with me. My first act is to call the police in. If the guy leaves, fine; I'll give the cops as good a description as I can.

          One thing I won't do is draw my handgun or even let anyone know that I have it, at least at that point in time. When the police arrive, I'll let them know as a courtesy I give them as complete a description of the guy as I can, and they perform their function. I cooperate with the police as much as I can.

          Would anyone here do anything different?
          Same as you, call the police, nothing else

          I don't know that I would say I was armed, just me though
          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
            From the same website, this scenario is presented.



            In a case like this, the front door is a decoy/diversion so the guy in the back is free to make his move. First thing I'd do is gather the family together in the master bedroom, while calling for help. Remember the cell phone? Since I have my gun with me I won't have to get it,

            Once you have your family secured, let the police do their job, and stay put. The chances are they won't know you, so don't try to search the house yourself. Stay on the line. The police might need to ask you questions and also to let you know that the area is secured, and that you can safely leave the bedroom. Don't come out with a gun in your hand.

            Anything else?

            Now, if the BG's try to force their way in, and get at you or your family, it becomes a whole different ball of wax. Again, stay on the line. Assume the call is recorded. If they try to force their way in to your safe area, you will llkely be entirely justified in using deadly force in response. Get behind your bed, as the mattress will give a small degree of cover and concealment. If the BG has a weapon visible, shoot him. Don't warn him and don't try to be fair. Reload your gun if possible. If the other BG wants to continue the conflict, deal with him in the same manner.

            Now, obviously this scenario will vary depending on such factors as the layout of your home, and is intended as a general guide only.

            Thoughts?
            Again, same as you with the exception of letting Fido(s) do his/their thing

            You didn't mention it but it might be best to hand off the phone to another person so that the armed person can fully concentrate on the door

            Alarms have pro's and con's, they let you know when the house has been breached but depending on where the siren is located it can make hearing what is being said on the phone difficult
            Last edited by ricco; 09-08-2017, 16:23.
            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
              Just got back from an encounter with two pizza-men, the evil intent in their black hearts was obvious. I varied in double tapping one and trple tapping another, as their intent to do me harm was there to see. Your hero emerged victorious once more.

              Okay, seriously: about 100 or so rounds went into both pizza men and like in my fanciful tale above, I alternated between double taps on one and triple taps on the other, coming back to the first one because he still presented a threat. The scenario was a robbery, with one man facing me and the other off to my left at a right angle to the first one. The distance was about 3 yards for the one facing me and about four yards for the other bad guy to my left..

              All drawing was from concealment and the gun was my 686 with Hogue Bantam grips. The shooting was mostly point shooting, as under these circumstances, (very close range, and very limited time constraints) sighted fire was not, in my judgment, needed, and acquiring even a rudimentary sight picture could have taken too much time. A judgment call on my part, but I think a good one.

              One thought that just ocurred to me: would the use of hollowpoint or other expanding type of bullets not penetrate enough to reach the spine? Or would they be likely to stop before they reach the spine, inflicting a fatal but not instantly-stopping wound? In other words, the BG would bleed out, but this could take several seconds, and while you're waiting for him to drop, he could still do some damage. Valid consideration or not?
              There is a school of thought that says when fighting multiple opponents, you put one on each target first and then follow up with additional shots if necessary. I believe the thinking is that taking the additional time for multiple shots on a single target gives the other opponent time to get a hit on the defender. That said, I think the Rob's, in one of their "Worlds Collide" video's, showed that the time for two shots compared to one shot was so small as to not make a difference. That said, the Rob's pull triggers for a living and they were on a shooting range where everything favored them. Just something to think about

              As for a spine shot, the chances of hitting the spine are so low as to not matter

              Hitting a cord that you can't see and is fairly small and is encased in bone is pretty tough shot





              "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

              "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chuck R. View Post

                With modern defensive ammo you should be good to go. The majority of defensive ammo has been was designed to meet FBI testing protocols that came about after the infamous Miami shootout in 86. So the most will get 12-14" of penetration through various clothing and barricade materials. Want to better your odds, carry SD ammo that is marketed towards LE and have published performance data. I prefer Speer Gold Dots for this reason.

                here's a decent site that has data for Speer and Federal Premium against FBI testing protocols:

                http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammun...n/default.aspx

                Chuck
                Thank you for the link. FWIW, SpeerGDHP's are what I use as well. The 38 +P short barrel load.
                Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ricco View Post

                  There is a school of thought that says when fighting multiple opponents, you put one on each target first and then follow up with additional shots if necessary. I believe the thinking is that taking the additional time for multiple shots on a single target gives the other opponent time to get a hit on the defender. That said, I think the Rob's, in one of their "Worlds Collide" video's, showed that the time for two shots compared to one shot was so small as to not make a difference. That said, the Rob's pull triggers for a living and they were on a shooting range where everything favored them. Just something to think about

                  As for a spine shot, the chances of hitting the spine are so low as to not matter

                  Hitting a cord that you can't see and is fairly small and is encased in bone is pretty tough shot




                  Good point on the putting one in each at first. And on the spine, I know it's kind of an iffy thing. One thing to keep in mind is that even though it is protected by the vertabrae, it can still be damaged by a nearby hit even if it is not hit itself.

                  On another thing, I had serious fun today. It had been a while since I had done any centerfire shooting. I'm going to do some checking with that Okie City outfitter to see if I can't get a couple of cases of 38 Special ammo.
                  Last edited by gerhard1; 09-08-2017, 18:11.
                  Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                  The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

                    Good point on the putting one in each at first. And on the spine, I know it's kind of an iffy thing. One thing to keep in mind is that even though it is protected by the vertabrae, it can still be damaged by a nearby hit even if it is not hit itself.

                    On another thing, I had serious fun today. It had been a while since I had done any centerfire shooting. I'm going to do some checking with that Okie City outfitter to see if I can't get a couple of cases of 38 Special ammo.
                    I was curious so I looked into this, just a little

                    It appears that the nerves that control arm movement come from the Brachial Plexus part of the spine and are located at C5 through T1

                    I'm guessing that would mean that if the spine itself were not injured above C5 that a close hit would have to injure a nerve or nerves in the Brachial Plexus to stop your opponent from being able to raise or fire his weapon. Since the the nerves branch off both sides of the spine the weapon side nerves would have to injured


                    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The spine is a target less than an inch wide, an extremely poor choice to actually make conscious effort to hit when time is at a premium.

                      Take it gladly if you get lucky and hit it, but deliberately slowing to aim for an inch-wide item on the far side of an aggressor is "contra-indicated".

                      Incidentally, "C5 through T1", is at the very bottom of the neck.very top of the chest, again, a shrinking target area. A small amount high and wide, you miss neck & shoulders completely.

                      The far better "targeting option" remains upper chest center, multiple holes in the heart/lung area.
                      Sure, "stops" may or may not be "instantaneous", but even S.E.A.L.s don't take very many hits in that area and keep attacking you....................................
                      My standing offer for people's "old" MRE's, $1 each for dark brown bags. $12/case $2 each for the sand tan bags (newer). $24/case
                      MAYBE, if they are 2010 and newer, I give you $2.50 each....... generosity.50 cents each for loose heaters. Where's those highlight video links mjkeat???????

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ricco View Post

                        There is a school of thought that says when fighting multiple opponents, you put one on each target first and then follow up with additional shots if necessary. I believe the thinking is that taking the additional time for multiple shots on a single target gives the other opponent time to get a hit on the defender. That said, I think the Rob's, in one of their "Worlds Collide" video's, showed that the time for two shots compared to one shot was so small as to not make a difference. That said, the Rob's pull triggers for a living and they were on a shooting range where everything favored them. Just something to think about

                        As for a spine shot, the chances of hitting the spine are so low as to not matter

                        Hitting a cord that you can't see and is fairly small and is encased in bone is pretty tough shot
                        We need to take into consideration the time, effort and energy required to locate the 1st threat and engage, then the 2nd threat, then the 1st all over again, and then the 2nd once more. They're not likely to remain in the same spot as when we first engaged them. We can't forget the probability of the one shot stopping or even slowing the attackers. You end up having to deal with multiple attackers for a longer period of time. Imagine how inefficient this becomes as we add attackers.

                        Considering locating/recognizing the threat and responding appropriately seems to be the hardest part of the equation for most in my experience, this give everyone a taste before stopping them theory is seriously flawed. It's like trying to multitask. It takes longer to get things done and the job generally isn't of the same quality as if we'd just focused on one task at a time.

                        We all have a tendency to task fixate/experience a rise in visual acuity in the center of our field of vision. It's due to the increase in blood brought on by the bodies natural reaction to this high level of stress. It's a survival positive. It allows us to take in more information than usual. Information is good. This should be considered as well. This is also why swinging the gun from target to target without having to asses between targets is silly. We're not likely to know where that second threat is until assessing.
                        Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'd tend to agree with targetting center of mass. Like you all seem to say, that is the best target of choice.
                          Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                          The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                            We need to take into consideration the time, effort and energy required to locate the 1st threat and engage, then the 2nd threat, then the 1st all over again, and then the 2nd once more. They're not likely to remain in the same spot as when we first engaged them. We can't forget the probability of the one shot stopping or even slowing the attackers. You end up having to deal with multiple attackers for a longer period of time. Imagine how inefficient this becomes as we add attackers.

                            Considering locating/recognizing the threat and responding appropriately seems to be the hardest part of the equation for most in my experience, this give everyone a taste before stopping them theory is seriously flawed. It's like trying to multitask. It takes longer to get things done and the job generally isn't of the same quality as if we'd just focused on one task at a time.

                            We all have a tendency to task fixate/experience a rise in visual acuity in the center of our field of vision. It's due to the increase in blood brought on by the bodies natural reaction to this high level of stress. It's a survival positive. It allows us to take in more information than usual. Information is good. This should be considered as well. This is also why swinging the gun from target to target without having to asses between targets is silly. We're not likely to know where that second threat is until assessing.
                            Probably dependent on the dispersion of the BG's

                            If the BG's are yards apart and some distance from the GG as in terrorist event maybe employing as many shots as necessary before moving on to the next target might be the best strategy

                            However

                            If we are confronted my multiple armed aggressors who are only a couple of feet apart and close to us, one on each might be best

                            This is all supposing that the BG's aren't as intersted in your destruction as they are in something else

                            The chances that one person is going to defeat multiple armed assailants who's sole purpose is that one person's death are close to nil

                            This is why we have to remember that everything we do on a range is a skill building DRILL, we can't allow ourselves to fall into a false sense of security and believe that what happens on a range bears any resemblance to real life

                            Last edited by ricco; 09-09-2017, 15:26.
                            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've seen to many folks struggle to properly identify amd emgage a threat to suggest that they complicate the process by making it so they have to identify and engage the threat more than once. Complicating the process doesn't generally produce better results especially in a fluid environment. It's not like on the range with static targets. The additional BG isn't likely to be where we last remember seeing him so we're left searching for him wasting time and energy that could have been used to actually stop a threat, the first threat we were already shooting. There's a saying in bass fishing, don't leave fish to find fish. Fitting I'd say.

                              And... The chance of having to engage multiple threats is slim. It's just not likely that bad guy 2 thru ? sticks around once the shooting starts. More important things the CCer needs to focus on.

                              And if there isn't an additional threat and we stop shooting the first to search for something that isn't there.

                              As for your last paragraph on skill development, you're right, context is extremely important.

                              edit: Here's a good explanation.

                              https://www.personaldefensenetwork.c...gement-000550/
                              Last edited by mjkeat; 09-09-2017, 19:01.
                              Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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