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  • #16
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post
    I've seen to many folks struggle to properly identify amd emgage a threat to suggest that they complicate the process by making it so they have to identify and engage the threat more than once. Complicating the process doesn't generally produce better results especially in a fluid environment. It's not like on the range with static targets. The additional BG isn't likely to be where we last remember seeing him so we're left searching for him wasting time and energy that could have been used to actually stop a threat, the first threat we were already shooting. There's a saying in bass fishing, don't leave fish to find fish. Fitting I'd say.

    And... The chance of having to engage multiple threats is slim. It's just not likely that bad guy 2 thru ? sticks around once the shooting starts. More important things the CCer needs to focus on.

    And if there isn't an additional threat and we stop shooting the first to search for something that isn't there.

    As for your last paragraph on skill development, you're right, context is extremely important.

    edit: Here's a good explanation.

    https://www.personaldefensenetwork.c...gement-000550/
    A valid point. The majority of my focus is on single opponent scenarios. I usually just have one pizza man to deal with.

    Today I took my PPK/s and function-fired it just to make certain that the stoppages it was having (I told about this in the thread on my PPK/s) were ammo-related. Turns out the pistol likes Remington (either standard or high velocity) and does not get along well with Winchester at all. While I was function-firing the Walther, I decided to do the same drill that I did with my 686 yesterday. I simply turned the boxes end-over-end.
    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

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    • #17
      Had occasion once to deal with three illegal aliens who were camping out in my barn. All three claimed to 'No hablo', but were able to understand enough of what I was saying to laugh at my instructions and questions, and refuse to comply with directions. I ended up shooting all three, who were standing side-by-side no more than a couple feet apart. It was quite simple to put one shot each, center mass, left to right, then another shot each, right to left, before they had time to react---one was armed with a pistol, the other two with knives. I dumped the bodies in an old dry well, then filled it in and built an out-building over it. Nobody has ever found out.

      Point being, one quick, centered shot each, then another each, as needed, can be a viable tactic. Speculating, if they had been much further apart, the smart thing would probably have been to take out the gun guy, then whichever of the knife guys looked more likely to make a run at me, then the third knifer---each one with however many rounds it takes to dissuade them.


      And for those with no sense of humor, this was a training scenario, with air-soft pistols, during a day of training new/young pups. My part was to be a 'what not to do' response. The 'don't do it' part was the fact that though they were armed, they never made a threatening move.

      Also, yes it was only air-soft, but the point was made that surprise can be a big helper--or hurter. None of the 'bad guys' actually expected to get shot, and it happened so quickly they had no chance to react. Depending on the situation, the shock of a 'victim' actually being willing and able to defend him/herself can give an edge. For the 'casual' bad guy--as in not, for instance, a real gang banger or other violent-lifestyle person--even the blast and muzzle flash of the gun can cause a moment of 'freezing' or shock, maybe giving more time to place a couple more shots as appropriate.
      Does that always happen? No, but when it does, be glad and accept the gift---like that bullet that slips through and hits the spine. Ace2
      Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ricco View Post

        I was curious so I looked into this, just a little

        It appears that the nerves that control arm movement come from the Brachial Plexus part of the spine and are located at C5 through T1

        I'm guessing that would mean that if the spine itself were not injured above C5 that a close hit would have to injure a nerve or nerves in the Brachial Plexus to stop your opponent from being able to raise or fire his weapon. Since the the nerves branch off both sides of the spine the weapon side nerves would have to injured

        So much in the middle of the spine or back is overlooked. Up high is upper body function, L1 to S5 in lumbar region is where the largest nerve branching from the spine (sciatic) for the legs is located. The spine in and of itself is seriously overlooked. All the "warrior mindset" or endocrine amping drugs in the world mean jack when signals to the muscle are "open-circuited" by a blast or a blade.
        For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
        And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
        And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
        And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!
        -Lord Byron (=5 lines)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by fixxer View Post

          So much in the middle of the spine or back is overlooked. Up high is upper body function, L1 to S5 in lumbar region is where the largest nerve branching from the spine (sciatic) for the legs is located. The spine in and of itself is seriously overlooked. All the "warrior mindset" or endocrine amping drugs in the world mean jack when signals to the muscle are "open-circuited" by a blast or a blade.
          Ya know, when I was looking at the pictures of the spine and what went where I noticed branching coming off the lumbar area, the Sacral Plexus in paticular

          The Sciatic Nerve caught my eye, it exits high from the Pelvic Girdle, it appears to be vulnerable

          MMA and Muay Thai fighters target the Sciatic Nerve with leg kicks, very painful and sometimes disabling

          It was popular in the tactics world some years back to target the pelvis but I'm thinking that an injury to the Sciatic Nerve would have a more dramatic effect
          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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          • #20
            Just finished a 2 day Vehicular Combatives class with Dave Spaulding down in Coffeyville. For those interested, this is the target he uses, pasted on a standard silhouette:



            According to Dave, this is anatomically correct and proportioned. You can download it here:

            http://www.handguncombatives.com/assets/chestCav.pdf

            Unfortunately I've never found on that works "offsets" for TGTs that aren't squared to the shooter.

            Chuck
            homo homini lupus est

            Comment


            • #21
              I watched the Facebook vids of Spaulding's class, it looked interesting

              Trying to get good hits on the robot target when working around the vehicle looked challenging


              I have to agree on the anatomical target

              Just from watching videos, unless it's some type play for hierachical dominance people almost always begin a fight in a bladed stance, I don't know if the bladed stance is innate or learned from our exposre to athletice competition where we almost always see a rearward drive leg

              Combine that with the Sternum and rib cage protecting the heart making a straight on anatomical target less than ideal
              "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

              "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ricco View Post
                I watched the Facebook vids of Spaulding's class, it looked interesting

                Trying to get good hits on the robot target when working around the vehicle looked challenging


                I have to agree on the anatomical target

                Just from watching videos, unless it's some type play for hierachical dominance people almost always begin a fight in a bladed stance, I don't know if the bladed stance is innate or learned from our exposre to athletice competition where we almost always see a rearward drive leg

                Combine that with the Sternum and rib cage protecting the heart making a straight on anatomical target less than ideal
                I was thinking about this, and was wondering if a bit of 'depth' for lack of a better term might be somewhat helpful here.

                I'm not rambling so please bear with me. Remember that I mentioned reactive targets in another thread? What I'm thinking is to fasten 'spacers' onto, say, a 2x4, and have these 'spacers to give the depth. By this I mean staple or tack the tagets onto the spacers and have the 2x4 to represent the backbone, which could then be knocked over with an angled shot. Or a dead-on shot. Whether or not you hit the spine would be dependant upon the angle of the shot, and other factors, including the power of the handgun. The 2x4 could be hinged to the base and set back upright when the drill is completed.
                Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
                  I was thinking about this, and was wondering if a bit of 'depth' for lack of a better term might be somewhat helpful here.

                  I'm not rambling so please bear with me. Remember that I mentioned reactive targets in another thread? What I'm thinking is to fasten 'spacers' onto, say, a 2x4, and have these 'spacers to give the depth. By this I mean staple or tack the tagets onto the spacers and have the 2x4 to represent the backbone, which could then be knocked over with an angled shot. Or a dead-on shot. Whether or not you hit the spine would be dependant upon the angle of the shot, and other factors, including the power of the handgun. The 2x4 could be hinged to the base and set back upright when the drill is completed.
                  I'd think the problem would be the mechanics of how you'd make it work. I have a target like this, and rounds just zip right through the 2x4. Mine has a 2x4 center and an AR500 steel plate for a target that sits with a silhouette to the front to obscure.





                  Normally I use a 8" COM plate, and a 4" triangular plate to simulate an ocular cavity shot, The plates can be replaced with smaller plates and the target can be calibrated to require multiple hits "rapidly" to take down or it just wobbles and resets itself or you can set it to take multiple shots with a9mm, but go down with one using a heavier caliber. I can take angled shots and get some "effect", and it does make the target area "thinner", but a lot of times the target won't go down. A better approach might just be use a "profile" target and a 2" narrow plate to simulate for your side presentations.

                  Honestly though, I wouldn't set up or specifically try for a spine shot. I'm way more of a 2-3 rounds rapidly COM and then asses, rather than spend time trying to hit a specific point. During the class we predominately fired 3 rounds for every presentation and pretty much most guys were hitting he spine, but that's a stationary paper target with a clear aiming point. I've seen an awful lot of folks incapable of hitting a 8" plate that's basically center mass of a silhouette just because it's covered up by a T-shirt with no clear aiming point.

                  Chuck
                  homo homini lupus est

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Just a thought

                    Nothing here you would want to do much of, more of a test than training

                    Suspend a 5 gallon bucket by the handle so it will move some, people rarely stand perfectly still for very long

                    Inside the bucket suspend a 2x2, to represent the spine, in a way that you can't see any part of the 2x2

                    Only a small part of a human torso is flat, the round bucket while not a perfect analog would be a closer shape than a flat target
                    Last edited by ricco; 09-11-2017, 21:18.
                    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I used to do the same thing in Bowhunter Ed demonstrations, to de-bunk those idiots with the theory that a ham shot from the rear was ethical and advisable, because you could hit the femoral artery and the deer would bleed out in seconds as it ran, leaving a big blood trail to follow. Instead of a bucket, I'd use a grocery bag and tape a straw or pencil inside, then set it up and tell the shooter to 'hit the artery'. Usually made the point.
                      I'm all for hitting the spine, especially with a caliber/bullet that has enough poop (technical term) to disrupt, if not break, the vertebrae/nerve system---after going through the ribs/sternum, muscle, fat, heart/lungs, etc.; but it's not a goal, it's just good fortune if it happens. Ace2
                      Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ricco View Post
                        Just a thought

                        Nothing here you would want to do much of, more of a test than training

                        Suspend a 5 gallon bucket by the handle so it will move some, people rarely stand perfectly still for very long

                        Inside the bucket suspend a 2x2, to represent the spine, in a way that you can't see any part of the 2x2

                        Only a small part of a human torso is flat, the round bucket while not a perfect analog would be a closer shape than a flat target
                        That sounds like an interesting idea. I could suspend the bucket at eye level and maybe tape the 2x4 to the inside of the bucket so it doesn't flop around.
                        Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                        The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

                          That sounds like an interesting idea. I could suspend the bucket at eye level and maybe tape the 2x4 to the inside of the bucket so it doesn't flop around.
                          Or maybe put the bucket on a board or something.
                          Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                          The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

                            That sounds like an interesting idea. I could suspend the bucket at eye level and maybe tape the 2x4 to the inside of the bucket so it doesn't flop around.
                            I think if you want an honest assessment of hit probability you probably won't want to go wider than 2 inches

                            An aside, from doing a little reading it seems a deer spine closely resmbles a human spine

                            So if you happen to know a Bambie slayer you might hit 'em up for the real deal

                            If it happens, take pictures
                            "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                            "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ace View Post
                              I used to do the same thing in Bowhunter Ed demonstrations, to de-bunk those idiots with the theory that a ham shot from the rear was ethical and advisable, because you could hit the femoral artery and the deer would bleed out in seconds as it ran, leaving a big blood trail to follow. Instead of a bucket, I'd use a grocery bag and tape a straw or pencil inside, then set it up and tell the shooter to 'hit the artery'. Usually made the point.
                              I'm all for hitting the spine, especially with a caliber/bullet that has enough poop (technical term) to disrupt, if not break, the vertebrae/nerve system---after going through the ribs/sternum, muscle, fat, heart/lungs, etc.; but it's not a goal, it's just good fortune if it happens. Ace2
                              All this here.

                              The spine is a great 'target of opportunity",,, if Opportunity smiles on ytou the same time Lady Luck smiles and you hit it.

                              As a planned shot,, it's a lousy plan. it's far too small a target and it is on the opposite side of all sorts of interfering barriers.

                              I've hit 2 deer in the spine over the decades, both were happenstance shots. I just happened to hit them there, it was not the intended shot.
                              The first was pure luck,, scope failure, hit was well over a foot high and quite a ways fwd. at 90 yards.
                              The second was excessive hold-over due to range mis-estimation, only 250 yards paced off.

                              Neither were hit with the oh-so-powerful 9mmPara.
                              Time to Drive By again.

                              Where's those highlight video links "Hard Act To Follow" mjkeat???????

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I was bored so I checked anound for spinal column analog

                                I found one at a medical supply store

                                Too much money for me to spend, but cost is relative to income so................

                                Anyway, for $81.00 you can a plastic spinal column of your own
                                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                                Comment

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