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  • #31
    This is pertinent to this thread, I think. It is a reasonably fair analysis of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv8cByaVyNQ
    Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
    The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

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    • #32
      Interesting video, thanks for posting

      He mentions "Marksmanship", I agree and disagree

      I agree that the agents marksmanship for the most part fell short, that said, all the agents met the marksmanship standards required by the FBI

      So was marksmanship to blame or was it the training they received

      As I have mentioned, on pretty much any day I can watch one agency or another at the range

      I rarely do because nothing much has changed in the last 10 years, maybe they do secret stuff in other places, dunno

      What I do know is that in every class I've been to in the last 10 years or so LEO's have been in attendence and usually on their own dime. These officers must feel that there is something lacking in their agencies training methodology for them to spend their own money for training
      "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

      "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

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      • #33
        Originally posted by ricco View Post
        Interesting video, thanks for posting

        He mentions "Marksmanship", I agree and disagree

        I agree that the agents marksmanship for the most part fell short, that said, all the agents met the marksmanship standards required by the FBI

        So was marksmanship to blame or was it the training they received

        As I have mentioned, on pretty much any day I can watch one agency or another at the range

        I rarely do because nothing much has changed in the last 10 years, maybe they do secret stuff in other places, dunno

        What I do know is that in every class I've been to in the last 10 years or so LEO's have been in attendence and usually on their own dime. These officers must feel that there is something lacking in their agencies training methodology for them to spend their own money for training
        Could it not be both? That's my thinking; at this point in time anyway. Why didn 't the agents have speedloaders? Like he said, they were available at the time, and they were popular with cops. Another very legitimate question was why did Grogan not have his eyeglasses secured with with what the narrator refers to as a 'nerd strap'? Such a minor thing, and yet it could have saved Ben Grogan's life.

        The cartridges were not to blame for this. From what I can see, it was a combination of faulty tactics and poor marksmanship.
        Last edited by gerhard1; 09-13-2017, 16:42. Reason: typo
        Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
        The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

        Comment


        • #34
          Maybe a good thing/bad thing happening here

          LEO's simply don't get into a suffcient number of gunfights to warrant the increased amount of time and money needed for better training


          As for the Nerd Strap, given the training methodology of toeing a line and shooting a score it is unlikely that Grogan's glasses had ever been knocked off so it was never a consideration. I doubt that in 1986 there was much if any FOF training being done, FOF is where you learn about things like glasses being knocked off


          Don't know about the Speed Loaders, maybe they thought it would spoil the drape of their trousers, I'm only half kidding

          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

          Comment


          • #35
            Re; the 'nerd strap' if Grogan's eyesight was as bad as I understood it to be, he should have anticipated that his glasses woould be knocked off and prepared for that. When I was in high school in the 1960's, there were guys on the footbll and basketball teams who used them to keep their glasses in place. Once, more than 40 years ago, I was working a security patrol and a drunk rear-ended me. I wore eyeglasses at the time, and the impact made them go flying. And one of the first things in the Miami incident was the cars got rammed.

            Grogan should have had them on whenever the SWAT team went on a call. After all, he was the local FBI SWAT commander.
            Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
            The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
              Re; the 'nerd strap' if Grogan's eyesight was as bad as I understood it to be, he should have anticipated that his glasses woould be knocked off and prepared for that. When I was in high school in the 1960's, there were guys on the footbll and basketball teams who used them to keep their glasses in place. Once, more than 40 years ago, I was working a security patrol and a drunk rear-ended me. I wore eyeglasses at the time, and the impact made them go flying. And one of the first things in the Miami incident was the cars got rammed.

              Grogan should have had them on whenever the SWAT team went on a call. After all, he was the local FBI SWAT commander.
              I agree completely

              "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

              "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

              Comment


              • #37
                From what understand, the TV movie In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders, with Michael Gross and David Soul was really pretty accurate in how it presented the shootout itself. There were a couple of equipment errors in the film, however: One was FBI agent Mireles' handgun. In the film, it was either a Model 10 or Model 13 S&W. In the actual incident, he was armed with a 686. The other had to do with Platt's Mini-14. In the film It was full-automatic, in reality it was a semi-auto.

                Other than those two little details, it was reasonably true-to-life.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04dUCT-qO3c&t=819s

                The video lasts for about 16 minutes.
                Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
                The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Here ya go G... Y'all can discuss/dissect this one:

                  You are in Crook Co. Ill, it's quarter after 5AM, you are a 30-yr-old woman, being battered by one Damien Hernandez, you pull out an artillery piece and pump him 3 times (head, chest, junk).
                  My standing offer for people's "old" MRE's, $1 each for dark brown bags. $12/case $2 each for the sand tan bags (newer). $24/case
                  MAYBE, if they are 2010 and newer, I give you $2.50 each....... generosity.50 cents each for loose heaters. Where's those highlight video links mjkeat???????

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

                    Could it not be both? That's my thinking; at this point in time anyway. Why didn 't the agents have speedloaders? Like he said, they were available at the time, and they were popular with cops. Another very legitimate question was why did Grogan not have his eyeglasses secured with with what the narrator refers to as a 'nerd strap'? Such a minor thing, and yet it could have saved Ben Grogan's life.

                    The cartridges were not to blame for this. From what I can see, it was a combination of faulty tactics and poor marksmanship.
                    Not completely, no, but there were very notable ammunition failures that happened.

                    Matix took a Took a .38 +P through the forearm, minor hit.
                    Matix also took one .158gr 38 +P to the face, failed to penetrate,, knocked him cold for a short time.
                    Matix was no longer "offensive" after the arm shot, he fired no other rounds the entire fight.


                    Platt took a 9mm through his arm before it entered his chest. It collapsed a lung, but failed to reach his heart due to power used going through the arm. This wound killed him, eventually.
                    Platt also took a .38+P to the face,,, failed to penetrate.
                    Platt's last hit was a chest shot that magically DID manage to hit (but not go through) the spine, it id paralyze him, stopping all fighting, he died not long afterward



                    The FBI fired 78 rounds over the span of roughly 4 minutes.
                    The perps fired at least 48 rounds, same time.

                    In the first minuter,, Matix was the only perp shot, shot 3 times:
                    Matix’s 1st gunshot wound (right forearm wound E) - Grogan
                    Matix’s 2nd gunshot wound (right head wound F) - McNeill
                    Matix’s 3rd gunshot wound (right neck/chest wound B) - McNeill

                    McNeil's 5th and 6th shots, he fired no more. He fired these last AFTER being shot in the gun hand by Platt's .223.

                    Matix's second wound: The bullet hit Matix just forward of his right ear, below the temple, shattered the cheek bone, hit and fractured the base of the cranium, and entered the right sinus cavity under the eye. This hit bruised the brain (but did not penetrate the cranium or brain)
                    Matix's last wound: The bullet entered the right side of his neck after he slumped unconscious momentarily forward against the driver’s side door. It penetrated his neck at a downward angle and severed the blood vessels behind the collar bone, ricocheted off the first rib near the spine and came to rest in the chest cavity. It bruised but did not penetrate the right lung


                    Platt was not hit until he exited the car.

                    In the span of just seconds, Platt was shot 4 times upon exiting the Monte Carlo.
                    Platt’s 1st gunshot wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) - Dove
                    Platt’s 2nd gunshot wound (right thigh wound L) - Dove?
                    Platt’s 3rd gunshot wound (left foot wound I) - Dove?
                    Platt’s 4th gunshot wound (back wound K) - Orrantia?



                    While Platt was shooting agents, he took 4 more hits:
                    Platt’s 5th wound (right forearm wound D) - Risner?/Orrantia? This wound damaged the hand's grip ability to his .357 revolver he was using right now.
                    Platt’s 6th wound (right upper arm/chest wound C) - Risner
                    Platt’s 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th wounds (right foot wounds E, F; and left foot wounds G and H) - Mireles
                    The buckshot wounds to the feet did not take Platt off his feet. Range, 25 feet.


                    Mireles then drew his .357 Magnum revolver, (158gr m.38+P's) got to his feet, moved laterally about 15 feet parallel with the street, clear of McNeill’s car, and then began walking directly towards Platt and Matix, who were sitting in Grogan/Dove’s car. Mireles fired six rounds of .38 Special +P from his revolver. Mireles revolver shots 1 and 2 were fired at Platt, shots 3, 4 and 5 at Matix, and shot 6 at Platt. Five of the six bullets hit Platt or Matix.

                    Platt’s 11th wound, scalp wound A - Mireles
                    Matix’s 4th wound, face wound D - Mireles
                    Matix’s 5th wound, face/spine wound C - Mireles
                    Matix’s 6th wound, face/neck wound A - Mireles
                    Platt’s 12th wound, chest/spine wound J - Mireles

                    Mireles second shot then hit Platt above the outer edge of the right eyebrow (Platt scalp wound A). The weight of the projectile that was recovered from Platt’s scalp was about 19 grains, suggesting that the bullet hit the driver’s side window post and fragmented. After the fragment penetrated the skin it ricocheted off the curvature of the right side of Platt’s forehead, and traveled between the skin and the exterior surface of the skull for a distance of about 2 inches before it stopped above the right temple. The fragment did not penetrate the cranium.

                    Mireles third shot hit Matix’s face just below the left cheekbone and adjacent to the left nostril (Matix face wound D). The projectile fragmented in two; the largest embedded in the bone beside the nose, a smaller fragment penetrating the left sinus cavity.

                    The bullet hit Matix’s face just outside the lower right edge of the right eye socket, at about seven o-clock. The bullet traveled downward through the facial bones, through the right side of the lower jaw, into the neck, and entered the spinal column between cervical vertebra number 7 (C7) and thoracic vertebra number 1 (T1) where it severed the spinal cord at the base of T1.

                    The bullet hit Matix’s chin just below the right corner of the mouth, penetrated the jaw bone and into the neck where it came to rest beside the right side of the spinal column at C7. The bullet did not damage the spinal cord.

                    By this time Mireles had reached the driver’s side door of Grogan/Dove’s car when he fired his sixth and final shot. Mireles extended his gun through the driver’s side window and fired at Platt (Platt chest/spine wound J). The bullet penetrated Platt’s chest just below the left collar bone, traveled through the musculature of the shoulder and neck and stopped in the fifth cervical vertebra (C5), where it bruised the spinal cord.


                    http://holtz.org/Library/Social%20Sc...20shootout.htm
                    My standing offer for people's "old" MRE's, $1 each for dark brown bags. $12/case $2 each for the sand tan bags (newer). $24/case
                    MAYBE, if they are 2010 and newer, I give you $2.50 each....... generosity.50 cents each for loose heaters. Where's those highlight video links mjkeat???????

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      "I agree that the agent's marksmanship, for the most part, fell short, that said, all the agents met the marksmanship standards required by the FBI"

                      Standardized testing generally does.

                      In the examples, gerhard gave the individuals had practiced, simulated, and actually faced opposition, they wore the strap. I wonder why? Well because they had probably had their glasses knocked off and took steps to prevent it from happening again. Your glasses don't get knocked off toeing the line in traditional marksmanship shooting fashion why would anyone expect them to get knocked off in an actual fight. It also shows that marksmanship can fail if not developed in the proper context. When confronted with something we are not expecting or if we expected it to be different it can interrupt our ability to apply skill. Skill in and of itself is not good enough. Marksmanship is important but not the most important.
                      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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