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  • gerhard1
    started a topic Gunsite

    Gunsite

    It sounds good and I am thinking of saving my pennies and going some day.

    https://www.gunsite.com/

  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post

    Dunno

    I only practice for reactive self defense, a very small envelope for firearms use

    I will proceed from there

    There are two facets of reactive self defense

    1. Not getting shot/ stabbed/ bludgeoned (most important)

    2. Shooting (only to be used as a last resort)

    Typically training teaches that in reverse ('cause people want to shoot) and most don't teach the not getting shot part at all ('cause people want to shoot)

    So here it is, if you are interested in REACTIVE SELF DEFENSE

    If you can draw from real concealment and get a solid COM hit at 10 feet in about 1 second you are finished with static shooting

    Now you move on to NOT GETTING SHOT

    Look around and find a methodology that teaches not getting shot and go there
    Boring, lol. It's true though. It takes integrity to teach such a curriculum. Very few people want to participate. Why? Because people want to attend a shooting class.

    Leave a comment:


  • ricco
    replied
    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post

    All right, then; where? Specifically?
    Dunno

    I only practice for reactive self defense, a very small envelope for firearms use

    I will proceed from there

    There are two facets of reactive self defense

    1. Not getting shot/ stabbed/ bludgeoned (most important)

    2. Shooting (only to be used as a last resort)

    Typically training teaches that in reverse ('cause people want to shoot) and most don't teach the not getting shot part at all ('cause people want to shoot)

    So here it is, if you are interested in REACTIVE SELF DEFENSE

    If you can draw from real concealment and get a solid COM hit at 10 feet in about 1 second you are finished with static shooting

    Now you move on to NOT GETTING SHOT

    Look around and find a methodology that teaches not getting shot and go there

    Leave a comment:


  • gerhard1
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post
    Last week on "Wednesday Night At The Range" on the Outdoor Channel, "Shooting Gallery" did a show on lever action rifles (pistol caliber) for self defense from Gunsite

    As much as I respect Micheal that show should have never aired, it was pathetic

    Maybe if someone other than the Gunsite instructor who was doing the "train like you fight" mantra and then having them shoot groups and shoot 2 and load 1 all from static was just awful

    If that is what Gunsite defines as fight training the self defense minded person should look elsewhere
    All right, then; where? Specifically?

    Leave a comment:


  • ricco
    replied
    Last week on "Wednesday Night At The Range" on the Outdoor Channel, "Shooting Gallery" did a show on lever action rifles (pistol caliber) for self defense from Gunsite

    As much as I respect Micheal that show should have never aired, it was pathetic

    Maybe if someone other than the Gunsite instructor who was doing the "train like you fight" mantra and then having them shoot groups and shoot 2 and load 1 all from static was just awful

    If that is what Gunsite defines as fight training the self defense minded person should look elsewhere

    Leave a comment:


  • mjkeat
    replied
    Yet more examples of me being the issue here and it having nothing to do with the fact those that have issue with me do so because they disagree with me.

    Do I really need to go thread to thread pointing this out?

    Leave a comment:


  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by Chuck R. View Post
    gerhard,

    If you're still interested now that the resident "little fish" have weighed in, PM me and I'll put you in touch with some guys that have been and actually know what they're talking about.
    Can you dispute the discrepancies listed in post#14? If not then why would you recommend such instruction especially considering the resource requirement to attend?

    I've met instructors from there. I've trained under instructors from there. I've worked with instructors from there. I've been on the range with students from there. Lol. Its all the same dogma that comes from their mouths.

    Why don't you explain why you think it's a good place to seek info that could one day save your life in a sudden assault where death could very well be the outcome.

    Is also be interested in hearing your breakdown of the first two shooters in the video I referenced in post #14.

    No pressure. Do. Don't. Your decision, but it would be interesting to hear what you had to say.

    An interesting observation. You have no qualms about launching into infintile temper tantrums and personal attacks yet you refuse to attack the information shared. Why is that?

    Originally posted by ricco View Post
    And if you $3000.00 to spend on a basic class

    Honest, if you have 3 grand to spend, pack up the wife and go to Vegas for a few days, go to a show, have a nice dinner

    Your money would far better spent in Vegas than in Paulden
    I vote for this. For better investment of $3k. The experience. The stories. The time shared together. The health benefits alone from the relaxation and all arpund good time. Not only that but the liklohood of ever having to use a firearm to defend yourself is so astronomically low...

    Leave a comment:


  • ricco
    replied
    And if you $3000.00 to spend on a basic class

    Honest, if you have 3 grand to spend, pack up the wife and go to Vegas for a few days, go to a show, have a nice dinner

    Your money would far better spent in Vegas than in Paulden

    Leave a comment:


  • Chuck R.
    replied
    gerhard,

    If you're still interested now that the resident "little fish" have weighed in, PM me and I'll put you in touch with some guys that have been and actually know what they're talking about.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by ricco View Post

    Dunno

    I guess people have different reasons for going to classes

    These days I only do private classes and don't have to worry about all the time fillers and pew pew that so many think is important

    Most reactive CCW engagements are 0-10 and as we see over and over again marksmanship (as shown in the Gunsite video) plays little or no part in the outcome

    Let's look at a couple of things that are more important

    What does play a major part in the outcome is biomechanics and body positioning in relationship to your opponent

    We so often hear about "situational awareness" or "keep your head on a swivel" but it never goes any farther than those few words

    Okay, we have kept our head on a swivel and we see a possible threat, now what

    Without at least a basic understanding of spacial reasoning we see a possible threat but when and where do we get close enough to interact, will it favor us or them

    If that possible threat is moving on an intersecting line we can change our speed, if the possible threat also changes speed to match us so as to keep the point of intersection the same that is an indicator

    If your class is primarily focused on "shooting" and you go to that class because you want to shoot and be in the company of like minded people or if you already have a high degree of marksmanship skills and want to show those skills to others in the class for the attaboys then that is what you should do, nothing wrong with it, have a good time but don't fool yourself into thinking your are learning self defense

    If you want to learn self defense there are far more important aspects than shooting
    I hasn't watched the video (only watched the first 2 shooters) you linked until just now, holy **** that was bad and his only concern was her finger. That's not an I syructor that cares about this woman's skill development at all. That's like one of those feed yards just trying to fatten up the cow so they can ship them off so they can open a spot for the next cow. If what she did was what they instructed her to do the issue is bigger than I thought.

    Look at her work space reload and you see why workspace reloads shouldn't be taught. Her magazine doesn't want to drop and the gun is out in no-man's land waiting to be jacked. That assessment is silly.

    They're drawing their firearm before they be even oriented so they can gather info to know if they even need to present their firearm. That shows a lack of knowledge on the part of the instructor. If someone comes up behind us to play a practical joke, we're startled, and our response is to present our firearm while spinning around and shoot before we even know what's happening behind us... Does that sound appropriate?

    Two rounds strings of fire? What are we missing here? The understanding that it is likely to take a multiple rpund string of fire to incapacitate a threat?

    The old dude gets upset with himself, pauses, then? The instructor doesn't encourage him to continue or even share why it's so important to fight through the urge to stop and show displeasure in yourself during what should be a simulated sudden assault playing in his mind while shooting this drill. It's a mindset that they don't seem to be teaching. One of many things that separates pewpew marksmanship focused training from fight focused training.

    Just a few points of contention watching the first 2 shooters in the video.

    My first thought is that these people aren't looking for real info. They're looking for that pat on the back and a false sense of security or they're to reserved and polite to demand an actual education. For that kind of money I'd expect an actual education that would send me down a path that lead to the utmost efficiency in the context of self defense.

    If all you're after is a pat on the back and someone to say good job regardless of the job you do than by all means it's absolutely your prerogative, your time, your money, go for it.

    I will share this, in the world of fight focused training gunsite is regularly ridiculed by instructors who understand need vs. want.

    I may go watch the rest of the video. Something about human curiosity and trainwrecks.

    Edit: Why attend a class lead by someone with the idea that whatever works best is best or is going to allow for that mentality even if they don't agree?

    If your going to do whatever you want and the instructor isn't going to push you to perform could you not save your money and just stay home and achieve the same end result?

    Other than collecting a cert and having something to talk about with friends what are you purchasing by attending such a course?
    Last edited by mjkeat; 02-07-2019, 20:24.

    Leave a comment:


  • ricco
    replied
    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

    I'm curious as to the mental process behind the attraction to this.
    Dunno

    I guess people have different reasons for going to classes

    These days I only do private classes and don't have to worry about all the time fillers and pew pew that so many think is important

    Most reactive CCW engagements are 0-10 and as we see over and over again marksmanship (as shown in the Gunsite video) plays little or no part in the outcome

    Let's look at a couple of things that are more important

    What does play a major part in the outcome is biomechanics and body positioning in relationship to your opponent

    We so often hear about "situational awareness" or "keep your head on a swivel" but it never goes any farther than those few words

    Okay, we have kept our head on a swivel and we see a possible threat, now what

    Without at least a basic understanding of spacial reasoning we see a possible threat but when and where do we get close enough to interact, will it favor us or them

    If that possible threat is moving on an intersecting line we can change our speed, if the possible threat also changes speed to match us so as to keep the point of intersection the same that is an indicator

    If your class is primarily focused on "shooting" and you go to that class because you want to shoot and be in the company of like minded people or if you already have a high degree of marksmanship skills and want to show those skills to others in the class for the attaboys then that is what you should do, nothing wrong with it, have a good time but don't fool yourself into thinking your are learning self defense

    If you want to learn self defense there are far more important aspects than shooting
    Last edited by ricco; 02-07-2019, 17:10.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjkeat
    replied
    Originally posted by gerhard1 View Post
    Hey Chuck, guess what? Gunsite has a class for--are you ready?--wheelguns!!

    And to tell the truth, while I agree with most of what he says, I don't idolize the man either. He had some good ideas, but I can still pick and choose the ideas that work best for me. One thing I do agree with Gunsite on is their acknowledgment that there is no one gun that everyone will be best with. All they ask that you try what they teach and if you have problems with it, go to something that works for you.
    I'm curious as to the mental process behind the attraction to this.

    Leave a comment:


  • ricco
    replied
    If ANYONE is going to drop close to $3000.00 on a basic class, regardless of who is teaching it, and put's it on a FORUM (see definition of Forum) I will take that as the person wanting to start a discussion

    I gave my opinion
    Last edited by ricco; 02-07-2019, 03:45.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldstuffer
    replied
    No, you merely, and clearly insinuated he shouldn't go.

    Leave a comment:


  • mjkeat
    replied
    If you're into dogma it's right up your alley.

    I have been on the range with a couple different gunsite instructors and a few gunsite alumni and it's all the same. I wasn't impressed. Lots of pewpew very little knowledge or understanding of "why". We all know shooting is but an extremely small part of self defense. The pewpew was dated as well. The mental side of it was as well.

    There's definately better out there for less money time and effort to boot.
    Last edited by mjkeat; 02-07-2019, 03:12.

    Leave a comment:

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