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  • #31
    Originally posted by ricco View Post

    Sigh...

    And now you know how I feel with most every response I get to a post, including this one


    Your missing the point altogether because you are too hyper-focused on your classes, training, methods, gun, stance, whatever.

    I'm not missing the point at all but you aren't understanding my reply, let's look at the definition of "biology"

    biology
    /bīˈləjē/

    noun
    1. the study of living organisms, divided into many specialized fields that cover their morphology, physiology, anatomy, behavior, origin, and distribution.
    I said that if we are going to such an all encompassing term such as biology we need to narrow parameters, not discard it

    Physiology, anatomy, morphology do apply, my opinion, behavior deserves a thread all it's own


    You can train your *** off, and never be as good as some others who don't who are endowed with physical gifts you'll never obtain. Its way more than bone density and fast or slow muscle twitch.


    As I said, there will always be outliers, people who are naturally gifted, those people typically make lot's of money playing with a ball of some sort, but those people are rare, less than 2% of collegiate players make onto an NFL team

    Even then it's training and practice that determines how long they get to play


    Just how good do you both think you are and how do you measure that against any other guy? Me thinks you both think pretty highly of yourselves.

    From doing FOF I can tell you that I've won about as many as I've lost, because of that I am far humble than cardboard hole punchers that never lose

    As for the rest I can't speak for anyone bit myself

    You couldn't be more wrong, you are as wrong as wrong get's if you believe that I think highly of my skills

    If I thought highly of my skills and abilities I wouldn't practice as much I do, if I thought highly of skills and abilities I'd sit on couch and cram nachos down my neck instead of being at the gym and the range practicing self defense and not just pewing pewing COF's that make me feel good about myself


    Classes and methods are all over place, by a bunch of successful folks.

    We have been over this ad nauseam but I guess we can do it again

    Almost all instructors teach PROACTIVE marksmanship, although they might do it fast and close to the target so that in students mind it resembles SELF DEFENSE training

    The SELF DEFENSE minded person has little use for PROACTIVE marksmanship

    Being successful doesn't necessarily mean what they are teaching is what the student needs
    "such an all encompassing term such as biology"
    Which is why I used it. And chemistry. And
    physics. And psychology. Because...combined...create INFINITE differences in the total make-up of a human being...their overall abilities..their cognitive responses...their instincts...and still... psychological makeup...and more.


    "As I said, there will always be outliers, people who are naturally gifted, those people typically make lot's of money playing with a ball of some sort, but those people are rare, less than 2% of collegiate players make onto an NFL team"

    The percentage of so called "outliers" is far greater than 2% of players making into ANY pro sport. Crappy example. They aren't that rare. a There are tons...no...lol...an infinite number of so called "outliers" with different genes, skills, attitudes, physical make up...etc. Some shoot you faster in FOF.

    "As for the rest I can't speak for anyone but myself"
    Exactly. Now you're catching on.... (Psssst...cause everyone is different)

    "Almost all instructors teach PROACTIVE marksmanship, although they might do it fast and close to the target so that in students mind it resembles SELF DEFENSE training

    The SELF DEFENSE minded person has little use for PROACTIVE marksmanship"


    Oh really. So ask your buddy why he's hung up on "stance".

    Then ask him why he hasn't answered my questions clear back in post #8....& we are at #30.

    Do you get an exact proper grip EVERYTIME you draw and shoot. If you say yes, you're lying. Or, you're not pushing yourself to the razors edge as you say you are.

    Ever seen a Glock or M&P fail? Just to learn it was operator error. I have. Numerous times. (On that same note... equipment wise...I've seen Glocks and M&P fail mechanically...but we're talking humans...so)

    Ever had or seen a squib load with both factory and handloads? I have. Ever seen how some people react and some don't? Folks learned failure drills in competition..without a lick of self-defense training.

    Ever seen someone move off the X and fall on their ***. I have...me included. (And not skip a beat and keep shooting (no training)... Or someone else just lay there pissed off and super embarrassed about what just happened (they had attended many classes).

    Ever gotten sick and find you can't do things well that whole week?

    Ever wake up with a new pain in your leg, foot, shoulder, whatever...that lasts for days?

    Ever seen a old guy teacupimg a revolver outshoot "some" other people while on the move all day? I have.

    Infinite human differences create infinite different circumstances, experiences, and infinite different results.

    Murphy's Law...part of that.

    Opinions differ. That's ok. Let it go....let it go....

    But...you can't. Cause your jobs are to correct everyone else and stop the spread of what you each deem, "bad" information.
    Here.

    But, why are you two the only ones? And why here?
    Because you're both VERY "different" from most everyone else on here. (Thank God)

    Oh...one more try...

    Keat...questions in #8? ('cause we really got way off track about "sub-par" stuff....)
    ​​​​
    Last edited by jagdawg; 08-07-2019, 06:16.
    Originally posted by mjkeat;
    The gun you have is better than the gun you don't.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by jagdawg View Post

      "such an all encompassing term such as biology"
      Which is why I used it. And chemistry. And....
      Because...combined...create INFINITE differences in the total make-up of a human being...and their abilities.


      "As I said, there will always be outliers, people who are naturally gifted, those people typically make lot's of money playing with a ball of some sort, but those people are rare, less than 2% of collegiate players make onto an NFL team"

      The percentage of so called "outliers" is far greater than 2% of players making into ANY pro sport. Crappy example. There are tons...no...lol...an infinite number of outliers with different genes, skills, attitudes, physical make up...etc.

      As for the rest I can't speak for anyone bit myself"
      Now you're catching on....

      "Almost all instructors teach PROACTIVE marksmanship, although they might do it fast and close to the target so that in students mind it resembles SELF DEFENSE training

      The SELF DEFENSE minded person has little use for PROACTIVE marksmanship"


      Oh really. So ask your buddy why he's hung up on "stance".

      Then ask him why he hasn't answered my questions clear back in post #8....& we are at #30.

      Do you get an exact proper grip EVERYTIME you draw and shoot. If you say yes, you're lying. Or, you're not pushing yourself to the razors edge as you say you are.

      Ever seen a Glock or M&P fail? Just to learn it was operator error. I have. Numerous times. (On that same note... equipment wise...I've seen Glocks and M&P fail mechanically...but we're talking humans...so)

      Ever had or seen a squib load with both factory and handloads? I have. Ever seen how some people react and some don't? Folks learned failure drills in competition..without a lick of self-defense training.

      Ever seen someone move off the X and fall on their ***. I have...me included. (And not skip a beat and keep shooting (no training)... Or someone else just lay there pissed off and super embarrassed about what just happened (they had attended many classes).

      Ever gotten sick and find you can't do things well that week?

      Ever wake up with a new pain in your leg, foot, shoulder, whatever...that lasts for a week?

      Ever seen a old guy teacupimg a revolver outshoot "some" other people while on the move all day? I have.

      Infinite human differences create infinite different circumstances and infinite different results.

      Opinions differ. That's ok. Let it go....let it go....

      But...you can't. Cause your jobs are to correct everyone else and stop the spread of what you each deem, "bad" information.
      Here.

      But, why are you two the only ones? And why here?
      Because you're both VERY "different" from most everyone else on here. (Thank God)

      Oh...one more try...

      Keat...questions in #8? ('cause we really got way off track about "sub-par" stuff....)
      ​​​​
      I'm not hung up on stance. As stated I'm focusing on stance because it is easy, I figured it would be something everyone could relate with, understand and discuss. If you uh understand natural and neutral stance you'd understand it is I reference to the position your body puts you in naturally, a natural reaction.

      You mentioned grip. You're correct, one may not be able to get a perfect grip just like one may not be able to utilize a perfect stance. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try or develop proper technique. Earlier in the year there was a trend called "sloppy technique" or something to that effect. People teaching and/or doing such, claiming to do so because, as you mentioned we may not be able to perform tasks perfectly while experiencing the physiological effects of the extreme stress associated with a sudden assault. In addition even if we may be able to utilize a perfect grip or stance that in no way effects what is the most efficient (best) grip or stance for minimizing recoil.

      The same goes for your guy using a tea cup grip. Imagine how much more control he'd have had over the gun if he would of used a more efficient grip on his gun. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the best option.

      You said, "Infinite human differences create infinite different circumstances and infinite different results." We're not discussing infinite different circumstances, we're talking self defense where you're more than likely to experience a sudden assualt at something like 9 to 20 feet. This information is widely known and accepted. There's data to back it up.

      So if we know the likely scenario we can figure out the methods, techniques and tools that'll work best.

      We're not unique creatures. We are very much similar to each other. Our bodies function very similarly. How do your joints work? Just like mine? More than likely. How do your muscles and tendons function? Just like mine. How do you react to a sudden and surprising threat? Yep, just like me? Very likely just like everyone else; lower your center of gravity, hands move inline with the threat, the hands might clench, and you're probably going to look in the direction of where you perceive the threat is coming from, at least some combination of those just like everyone else.

      You may like a 1911 better. Someone else may like revolvers. Preference has zero influence on most efficient (best).

      You may be "better" with a 1911 than you are with a Glock or whatever but chances are "better" isn't being judged on am even playing field, meaning more comfortable/familiar with doesn't mean it's "best". Like I've said, all things equal, judging from an equal playing field where one has invested equal amounts of resources. Best has nothing to do with opinion. The decision on which gun to carry or skills to develope should not be decided based on opinion or preference.

      Some people have a lot of training. Having attended training courses alone doesn't equal competency. You can learn and practice the wrong skills, etc. I've known guys with crazy resumes that didn't know ****, same concept.

      You said, "...outliers with different genes, skills, attitudes, physical make up...etc." How does any of that effect what's best?
      Last edited by mjkeat; 08-07-2019, 07:17.
      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by jagdawg View Post
        .....................................

        Ever seen a Glock or M&P fail? Just to learn it was operator error. I have. Numerous times. (On that same note... equipment wise...I've seen Glocks and M&P fail mechanically...but we're talking humans...so)

        Ever had or seen a squib load with both factory and handloads? I have. Ever seen how some people react and some don't? Folks learned failure drills in competition..without a lick of self-defense training.


        ...................

        ;
        Sounds like a couple of good arguments for a BUG.

        Also interesting how TMK ridicules and maligns the idea of shooting accurately in practice/training, because accuracy doesn't count in defensive encounters, so anyone who works to actually be able to hit accurately is in that 'unevolved, not-serious-about-self-defense' crowd; but yet he insists his choice of 'stance' is the best, and even though it may not be possible to 'utilize the perfect' stance, it should still be practiced. Let's see---don't practice for accuracy because it's not needed in a defensive situation; practice a 'perfect stance' because it may not happen in a defensive situation.
        Oh, how I wish he'd get that school started, so we mere mortals could be blessed with his perfectness. Ace2

        Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Ace View Post

          Sounds like a couple of good arguments for a BUG.

          Also interesting how TMK ridicules and maligns the idea of shooting accurately in practice/training, because accuracy doesn't count in defensive encounters, so anyone who works to actually be able to hit accurately is in that 'unevolved, not-serious-about-self-defense' crowd; but yet he insists his choice of 'stance' is the best, and even though it may not be possible to 'utilize the perfect' stance, it should still be practiced. Let's see---don't practice for accuracy because it's not needed in a defensive situation; practice a 'perfect stance' because it may not happen in a defensive situation.
          Oh, how I wish he'd get that school started, so we mere mortals could be blessed with his perfectness. Ace2
          If you could show me where I said that it would be much appreciated.

          You've mentioned the Figure 8 drill. If you truly understand the purpose of that drill or the Balance of Speed and Precision concept you'd understand the concept of Accuracy vs. Precision and the application of skill. I do and it's nothing like you've claimed I believe or recommend.

          You obviously don't understand the concept of a natural and neutral stance either.

          Have you requested those books I offered up for a book share type of thing? I'm not sure who has them currently but it would do you some good. There's a thread dedicated to it, a search would likely take you right to it. Give it a shot.
          Last edited by mjkeat; 08-07-2019, 16:35.
          Failure is an opportunity to learn.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mjkeat View Post
            Have you requested those books I offered up for a book share type of thing? I'm not sure who has them currently but it would do you some good. There's a thread dedicated to it, a search would likely take you right to it. Give it a shot.
            I still have the two books from mjkeat and throw in one I purchased to anyone that wants them. Just PM name and address, first come first serve. Just moved them from my night stand along with my Kindle to the man cave in the basement.

            Combat Focus Shooting- Rob Pincus
            Counter Ambush- Rob Pincus
            The Force on Force Paradigm- Suarez

            Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

            gladium habens libertatem habet

            Comment


            • #36
              as you mentioned we may not be able to perform tasks perfectly while experiencing the physiological effects of the extreme stress associated with a sudden assault.

              So.."we". Good. "We" could do better one day, and worse the next. Depends on many things.

              The same goes for your guy using a tea cup grip. Imagine how much more control he'd have had over the gun if he would of used a more efficient grip on his gun. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the best option.
              Was for him...that day. Would you have walked up to him and told him he was "lazy and stupid?". Do you think he'd give a shhht what you thought anyway?

              You said "Infinite human differences create infinite different circumstances and infinite different results." We're not discussing infinite different circumstances, we're talking self defense where you're more than likely to experience a sudden assualt at something like 9 to 20 feet. This information is widely known and accepted. There's data to back it up.
              One on one. Two on one. Gun on you. Two guns on you. One to left, one at front. No... Gun in front, one gun behind. Or, knife throat. Shotgun on back of head. Big guy, little guy, pissed off lady. You've already been hit with a baseball bat...crowbar...stick. You're bent over. You're on the ground. You're me. You're you. You're Ricco. You're Bruce f'n Lee. Infinite. And that's just in contact distance.

              So if we know the likely scenario we can figure out the methods, techniques and tools that'll work best.
              Wait .. wouldn't that be like...uh... chorographing???
              Ok. Still...you can take any scenario and tweak it to create totally different approaches and results. Throw in the human elements...and once again... infinite. Lol.

              We're not unique creatures.

              No words...

              You may like a 1911 better. Someone else may like revolvers. Preference has zero influence on most efficient (best).

              You may be ."better" with a 1911 than you are with a Glock or whatever but chances are "better" isn't being judged on am even playing field, meaning more comfortable/familiar with doesn't mean it's "best". Like I've said, all things equal, judging from an equal playing field where one has invested equal amounts of resources. Best has nothing to do with opinion. The decision on which gun to carry or skills to develope should not be decided based on opinion or preference.

              Sigh...I guess this means you're not gonna carry an AR pistol then, and stick with your "sub par" whatever....

              Some people have a lot of training. Having attended training courses alone doesn't equal competency.
              Interesting. So..on a scale of 1-10...10 being best...where do you rate your self-defense "competency"???

              You said, "...outliers with different genes, skills, attitudes, physical make up...etc." How does any of that effect what's best?
              It effects "who" not "what".
              The fact that "who's" are different could make a difference in "what" is "best" for that "who".

              Hey...does the same lure work on the same fish? Will a 10lbs Bass hit a worm any better than a hula popper. Or will the 13lbs bass pass on both? What's "best?. What's "sub-par? Why are fish different in what they prefer?

              G19 vs G17 vs G34? Which is best. Could it be the G19 is "sub- par because because it holds 15 vs 17? The grip angle and the block handle on the Glock is why the M&P scored big. Or maybe it was that stupid blade safety in the trigger.

              Damn...choices. Damn.... differences. What's best for you? What's best for Bruce Lee? Oh wait...super shape, superior fighting skills, and he didnt make it past 34. Well... different shiiiit happens to different people.

              Until you answer #8...I'm done playing. Catnip wore off again.

              Originally posted by mjkeat;
              The gun you have is better than the gun you don't.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by jagdawg View Post
                as you mentioned we may not be able to perform tasks perfectly while experiencing the physiological effects of the extreme stress associated with a sudden assault.

                So.."we". Good. "We" could do better one day, and worse the next. Depends on many things.

                The same goes for your guy using a tea cup grip. Imagine how much more control he'd have had over the gun if he would of used a more efficient grip on his gun. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the best option.
                Was for him...that day. Would you have walked up to him and told him he was "lazy and stupid?". Do you think he'd give a shhht what you thought anyway?

                You said "Infinite human differences create infinite different circumstances and infinite different results." We're not discussing infinite different circumstances, we're talking self defense where you're more than likely to experience a sudden assualt at something like 9 to 20 feet. This information is widely known and accepted. There's data to back it up.
                One on one. Two on one. Gun on you. Two guns on you. One to left, one at front. No... Gun in front, one gun behind. Or, knife throat. Shotgun on back of head. Big guy, little guy, pissed off lady. You've already been hit with a baseball bat...crowbar...stick. You're bent over. You're on the ground. You're me. You're you. You're Ricco. You're Bruce f'n Lee. Infinite. And that's just in contact distance.

                So if we know the likely scenario we can figure out the methods, techniques and tools that'll work best.
                Wait .. wouldn't that be like...uh... chorographing???
                Ok. Still...you can take any scenario and tweak it to create totally different approaches and results. Throw in the human elements...and once again... infinite. Lol.

                We're not unique creatures.

                No words...

                You may like a 1911 better. Someone else may like revolvers. Preference has zero influence on most efficient (best).

                You may be ."better" with a 1911 than you are with a Glock or whatever but chances are "better" isn't being judged on am even playing field, meaning more comfortable/familiar with doesn't mean it's "best". Like I've said, all things equal, judging from an equal playing field where one has invested equal amounts of resources. Best has nothing to do with opinion. The decision on which gun to carry or skills to develope should not be decided based on opinion or preference.

                Sigh...I guess this means you're not gonna carry an AR pistol then, and stick with your "sub par" whatever....

                Some people have a lot of training. Having attended training courses alone doesn't equal competency.
                Interesting. So..on a scale of 1-10...10 being best...where do you rate your self-defense "competency"???

                You said, "...outliers with different genes, skills, attitudes, physical make up...etc." How does any of that effect what's best?
                It effects "who" not "what".
                The fact that "who's" are different could make a difference in "what" is "best" for that "who".

                Hey...does the same lure work on the same fish? Will a 10lbs Bass hit a worm any better than a hula popper. Or will the 13lbs bass pass on both? What's "best?. What's "sub-par? Why are fish different in what they prefer?

                G19 vs G17 vs G34? Which is best. Could it be the G19 is "sub- par because because it holds 15 vs 17? The grip angle and the block handle on the Glock is why the M&P scored big. Or maybe it was that stupid blade safety in the trigger.

                Damn...choices. Damn.... differences. What's best for you? What's best for Bruce Lee? Oh wait...super shape, superior fighting skills, and he didnt make it past 34. Well... different shiiiit happens to different people.

                Until you answer #8...I'm done playing. Catnip wore off again.
                I really suggest you get with Dmog and ask him to send you those books. Do it for you. Do it for those you care about.
                Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                Comment


                • #38
                  #8.
                  What vehicle do you put your family in?
                  I bet it's "sub par".
                  Originally posted by mjkeat;
                  The gun you have is better than the gun you don't.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                    I really suggest you get with Dmog and ask him to send you those books. Do it for you. Do it for those you care about.
                    I will be happy to send the books...I enjoyed and learned from them and thank mjkeat for absorbing the shipping cost, not everyone will do that for strangers. However, I will not glorify these books. They are worth the read but I shared my disappointment in them probably because I hyped them up and expected more but I do not want that to overshadow their value. Does that make them "subpar?"

                    The point my never be accepted and I will refrain from singling anyone out.
                    Last edited by Dmog; 08-09-2019, 13:40.
                    Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

                    gladium habens libertatem habet

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Dmog View Post

                      I will be happy to send the books...I enjoyed and learned from them and thank mjkeat for absorbing the shipping cost, not everyone will do that for strangers. However, I will not glorify these books. They are worth the read but I shared my disappointment in them probably because I hyped them up and expected more but I do not want that to overshadow their value. Does that make them "subpar?"

                      The point my never be accepted and I will refrain from singling anyone out.
                      When you say you shared your disappointment in them do you mean you created a thread? If so can you share a link? I'd be interested in seeing what you had to say?
                      Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        No, I did not create a thread. My recollection is Ricco asked me a follow up question of what I thought of them on your original book share thread and that is where I shared. When I have time where I can go back and look I will refresh my memory but I do recall that all three books were supplemental style to the training. I was expecting text book type of the sort you get with Ayoob. Got a meeting but will go back when I get a chance. The fact that I am not wanting to keep copies for reference is my tell tale sign of when a book meets my expectations as a reference book. That being said, I do not want to diminish the sound philosophy based off of sound statistical data that these books share and one would be wise to implement in their training. They are worth the read but the point is they maybe "sub par" for others! GET IT! Pros and Cons my friend!
                        Last edited by Dmog; 08-09-2019, 15:05.
                        Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

                        gladium habens libertatem habet

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                          When you say you shared your disappointment in them do you mean you created a thread? If so can you share a link? I'd be interested in seeing what you had to say?
                          Meeting ended early so here is my response to Ricco's wondering my thoughts on Counter Ambush

                          Originally posted by Dmog View Post
                          I enjoyed the read and came away wanting more than the book provided. I guess my expectations were of a text book nature where all three of these books are really supplemental to taking the classes and practicing the concepts. There was over lapping or repeating of concepts from Combat Focus Shooting and Counter Ambush which is fine as they were important points to make. I would have liked more sharing of specific drills for movement. The book really helps you become efficient with self defense training as it describes the probability of attack style being an ambush and how your body is going to react. I like the concept of training to use that instinctual movement to become more efficient and do what has the better chance of working. It reinforced some of the things I have learned are the more efficient way to train, and pointed out some flaws in other things. Worth the read, just don't expect to be able to set up some drills on your range or in your basement after reading it.
                          You can see I was expecting to be shown some drills so I could practice. Which if I recall correctly Ricco, yourself, and maybe others supplied some! Exactly why I do not believe this forum is dead even though some of us like to piss on each other's trees!
                          Last edited by Dmog; 08-09-2019, 15:36.
                          Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

                          gladium habens libertatem habet

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Dmog View Post
                            Meeting ended early so here is my response to Ricco's wondering my thoughts on Counter Ambush



                            You can see I was expecting to be shown some drills so I could practice. Which if I recall correctly Ricco, yourself, and maybe others supplied some! Exactly why I do not believe this forum is dead even though some of us like to piss on each other's trees!
                            Good points. It has been a while since reading those books but I remember them being more educational in nature rather than tutorials which I believe gets us further toward our goal of being as efficient as we can be.

                            I can definitely see that having taken a class from him would increase the books usefulness and vise versa. I read the books a few times before going to Minnesota to take a week long course and it helped tremendously. I made frequent trips back to the books for reference sake due to the depth of some of the concepts this the colored tabs and highlighted areas.

                            What I like about the methodology is it actually gets to the why so many (most) leave out. It is by far the most comprehensive program available. It's what people need. It's what the industry needs more of. "Whatever works for you" is a lie and can be dangerous.

                            Drills for movement? Easy, move naturally. It's a natural thing. Turn your hips in the direction you want to move and move. If we're creating drills to practice movement in isolation we're not practicing efficiently or creating good/complete ruts. It's something we should integrate into drills just like the startled response. We don't create drill to practice startle response we integrate it into drills.
                            Last edited by mjkeat; 08-09-2019, 16:40.
                            Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                            Comment

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