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Jogger Attacked In A Park Self -Defense Scenario

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  • Jogger Attacked In A Park Self -Defense Scenario

    First let's eliminate the obvious, don't be there, don't be there alone, have your spike collared pitty with you and such

    Just the scenario, what could she have done better, if anything

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqzdlDNIsgA
    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

  • #2
    Real life? The BG doesn't trot leisurely. The BG doesn't warn her of an attack from so far away. BG likely smashes her skull in before she even knows she's being attacked. The lady, most anybody else. Doesn't go directly to their handgun and shouldn't as how would one know that it is indeed a lethal force threat. There will be some level of startled response as the victim attempts to collect and process information prior to mounting a defense.

    Outside of that cheese of a scenario the information in that clip was good; more than one BG, be aware as possible as you're not going to be aware of everything, the BG is going to wait for you to be most vulnerable, get the heck out of there and so on.
    Last edited by mjkeat; 08-10-2019, 00:03.
    Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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    • #3
      Her movement was likely that end with her tripping and in a poor position to fire and defend from the knife. Unless she was very very lucky she is going to get cut. Better to move off to the right or left while drawing getting off hand out to deflect blows after it clears the cover garment. Keeping center of gravity low and shotting one handed from as soon as the hip While driving the firearm to half extension.
      Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

      gladium habens libertatem habet

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dmog View Post
        Her movement was likely that end with her tripping and in a poor position to fire and defend from the knife. Unless she was very very lucky she is going to get cut. Better to move off to the right or left while drawing getting off hand out to deflect blows after it clears the cover garment. Keeping center of gravity low and shotting one handed from as soon as the hip While driving the firearm to half extension.
        From the hip then at partial extension? If thats what you're saying, why? What would be the pros and cons of shooting from such a position?

        Off hand extended to get cut up and possibly shot?

        I'm not quite sure if that's what you're saying or not. You're response was a little jumbled.

        Are you familiar with Shooting in Motion? If so what are your thoughts of it applied in this scenario?
        Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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        • #5
          Muggers look for "easy victims." Joggers alone with an iPod playing music, so don't be alone, don't be distracted by the phone call or music. I a mugger is within 7 yards and has a knife or club raised, shoot.

          But if distance or lack of a weapon, maybe a verbal challenge is enough? Every state has different laws. Since this is KSCCW Kansas law is the model. You can draw in SD or even just say, "Stay back or I'll shoot you."
          The old law had some DAs filing charges of agg assault against the dender because if they didn't shoot they really weren't in danger. But some states might have a DA that thinks ALL GUN USE is a crime and want you to be stabbed before you shoot. [ sarcasm ] (maybe)



          The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
          If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
          I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jim Macklin View Post
            .............
            But some states might have a DA that thinks ALL GUN USE is a crime and want you to be stabbed before you shoot. [ sarcasm ] (maybe)


            Not necessarily sarcasm, Jim, some people actually advocate the idea. We had a Legal Advisor at work who actually expected us to wait to be shot at--and it would be good if we got hit--because it would be easier for her to defend our actions. She was serious. There are stupid people out there. Ace2

            Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ace View Post

              Not necessarily sarcasm, Jim, some people actually advocate the idea. We had a Legal Advisor at work who actually expected us to wait to be shot at--and it would be good if we got hit--because it would be easier for her to defend our actions. She was serious. There are stupid people out there. Ace2
              Yes, not all DAs read and understand the intent of the law. Or they don't agree with it.
              The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
              If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
              I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think we can all agree that if this were real life she would have been cut, maybe killed, the BG stopped his forward motion for the video

                Even fired from that distance a bullet into the torso most likely wouldn't have stopped the knife swing

                She wasted time using a two handed grip on the pistol, the two handed grip was unnecessary

                At that distance it is empty hand transitioning to a gun response

                So this brings us to a question, how many practice defending attacks other than those coming from the front
                "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ricco View Post
                  I think we can all agree that if this were real life she would have been cut, maybe killed, the BG stopped his forward motion for the video

                  Even fired from that distance a bullet into the torso most likely wouldn't have stopped the knife swing

                  She wasted time using a two handed grip on the pistol, the two handed grip was unnecessary

                  At that distance it is empty hand transitioning to a gun response

                  So this brings us to a question, how many practice defending attacks other than those coming from the front
                  I know a lot of people that practice defending attacks coming from all sorts of directions other than directly in front of them. I've spent a lot of time helping to make sure of it. I also know I've attended a lot of classes where "instructors" don't or at the most try to but don't really understand the concept in a way that really reflects reality. Lots of strafing and pirouetting to reposition oneself directly in front of a predetermined target. Pee pew focused stuff.
                  Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mjkeat View Post

                    I know a lot of people that practice defending attacks coming from all sorts of directions other than directly in front of them. I've spent a lot of time helping to make sure of it. I also know I've attended a lot of classes where "instructors" don't or at the most try to but don't really understand the concept in a way that really reflects reality. Lots of strafing and pirouetting to reposition oneself directly in front of a predetermined target. Pee pew focused stuff.
                    "....pirouetting to reposition oneself directly in front of a predetermined target."

                    I wonder how many misinformed people think the "El Presidete" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZdmmcEwdwE is a fighting technique and not just a drill
                    Last edited by ricco; 08-12-2019, 14:40.
                    "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                    "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ricco View Post

                      "....pirouetting to reposition oneself directly in front of a predetermined target."

                      I wonder how many misinformed people think the "El Presidete" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZdmmcEwdwE is a fighting technique and not just a drill
                      99% know it's a drill.
                      (Really..how dumb do you guys think everyone else in the world is compared to you two?)

                      Define "drill".
                      Aren't drills incorporated into training and fighting techniques?

                      Define "oh crap...real life...this is happening to me now!"

                      I can tell you guys quit competition before you were exposed to kinds of scenarios that use 180 of the bay (or even two bays for one stage...lots of running) and fast moving targets from all angles allowed...which is better than you're gonna find at most outdoor ranges. If you had stuck around, you'd know better about what you speculate sometimes. (Pssst....you know you can shoot into the side berms too, right?).

                      Also...at some competitions do you realize there are "blind" scenarios too...where you don't see the layout before you shoot it?

                      Besides..tell me, where is the closest public use 360 outdoor "bay" for live fire? Tell me if it's ever been utilized in a competition?

                      (Tulsa...unless... someone built one closer in the past 6 years. And...yes..it's been used in competition)
                      Originally posted by mjkeat;
                      The gun you have is better than the gun you don't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ricco View Post

                        "....pirouetting to reposition oneself directly in front of a predetermined target."

                        I wonder how many misinformed people think the "El Presidete" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZdmmcEwdwE is a fighting technique and not just a drill
                        He says, training for the drill. WTF? Training for a drill?

                        He gives a list of fundamentals; movement, multiple shots, multiple targets, nice, nice, then says reloads, face to desk. Still not bad. 3 out of 4 is good. He then begins the drill. He twirls around, pew pew, pew pew, pew pew, reload, then... Bad ruts? Absolutely. Beep, bop, boop, I am a robot.


                        For someone other than Ricco, how does any of what was shown in that video help us to prepare for defending ourselves? What are most important things in self defense?
                        Failure is an opportunity to learn.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jagdawg View Post

                          99% know it's a drill.
                          (Really..how dumb do you guys think everyone else in the world is compared to you two?)

                          Define "drill".
                          Aren't drills incorporated into training and fighting techniques?

                          Define "oh crap...real life...this is happening to me now!"

                          I can tell you guys quit competition before you were exposed to kinds of scenarios that use 180 of the bay (or even two bays for one stage...lots of running) and fast moving targets from all angles allowed...which is better than you're gonna find at most outdoor ranges. If you had stuck around, you'd know better about what you speculate sometimes. (Pssst....you know you can shoot into the side berms too, right?).

                          Also...at some competitions do you realize there are "blind" scenarios too...where you don't see the layout before you shoot it?

                          Besides..tell me, where is the closest public use 360 outdoor "bay" for live fire? Tell me if it's ever been utilized in a competition?

                          (Tulsa...unless... someone built one closer in the past 6 years. And...yes..it's been used in competition)

                          99% know it's a drill.
                          (Really..how dumb do you guys think everyone else in the world is compared to you two?)


                          Based on what I see taught in classes and what I see practiced at the range I will disagree


                          Define "drill".
                          Aren't drills incorporated into training and fighting techniques?


                          Drills are done to build attributes

                          When football players do ladder drills or tire drills they are developing attributes but they don't take the tires onto the field during the game


                          I can tell you guys quit competition before you were exposed to kinds of scenarios that use 180 of the bay (or even two bays for one stage...lots of running) and fast moving targets from all angles allowed...which is better than you're gonna find at most outdoor ranges. If you had stuck around, you'd know better about what you speculate sometimes. (Pssst....you know you can shoot into the side berms too, right?).

                          I've watched quite a few shooting competitions, they happen most every weekend at the range I use

                          In all the years I've watched them I haven't seen a single stage that in any way prepares the competitor for a BG stepping out of the shadows and putting a gun in his face or BG swinging a piece of pipe at their head while they are putting groceries in the car

                          Why would I need to shoot at the side berms, today I walked from side berm to side berm, both directions, past the target to simulate an attack from the side



                          Besides..tell me, where is the closest public use 360 outdoor "bay" for live fire? Tell me if it's ever been utilized in a competition?

                          (Tulsa...unless... someone built one closer in the past 6 years. And...yes..it's been used in competition


                          The 360 range in Tulsa is great but is unnecessary for practicing SELF DEFENSE

                          To simulate an attack from behind just turn your back to the target and walk away, I did that today too


                          Your all hung up on the pew pew and the pew pew means very little in REACTIVE SELF DEFENSE

                          In all your rambling you still haven't said how you would have handled the attack shown in the scenario

                          You don't know what to do, do you

                          You refuse to do FOF, you think pew pewing is answer, it isn't and if you ever did a Craig Douglas EQC class or a Suarez FOF class you would find that out for yourself'. Yeah, doing FOF you might get bruised up (I did) and maybe a little bloody but you'll come away with knowledge you can't get on a shooting range

                          But you won't, you will continue to live in your competition world and try to talk about a subject (SELF DEFENSE) that you know very little about

                          I have no doubt that you have considerable competition skills, you should stick with that











                          Last edited by ricco; 08-13-2019, 06:46.
                          "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                          "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Drills ARE incorporated into training and fighting techniques. That's the point you skimmed over. You're saying many think the El Presidente is a fighting technique. I strongly disagree. Most people know better.

                            Why would I need to shoot at the side berms, today I walked from side berm to side berm, both directions, past the target to simulate an attack from the side.

                            Walk? Competition guys/gals do the exact same...but they're moving really fast or running, and still make hits. That was my point on side berms, but I guess I needed to spell it out for you.

                            It's not just a static shoot. Again... something you guys would have figured out over time if you handn't sucked and quit.

                            And no....I've never said it was training. I've always said it enhances faster shooting skills and weapon handling and manipulation. Is it perfect? No...what is?

                            I don't dog FOF anymore either. (Even though when you guys say "pew pew", I laugh because I hear airguns, not live rounds). But, I can recognize benefits.

                            Just don't understand why you can't see benefits from the competition world too. They are undeniably there.

                            People in competition may want to try to improve their El Presidente time. So what? Practice, repetitions, motor skills development, drawstroke. Not everyone is a master Ninja right out of the gate. Practice - even if static - is ok. Probably even safer for new shooters. Incorporate the movement later.

                            Not every drill incorporates ALL the skills you may need in a self-defense situation. You should know that too.



                            ​​
                            Originally posted by mjkeat;
                            The gun you have is better than the gun you don't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Should I develop skills in a manner that most reflects how they will be used, performed one after another in a generally specific order/system or in isolation?

                              Also, out of curiosity, is the mental aspect not more important than the physical? Why do some seem to focus on the physical ignoring the mental?

                              I'm new to this. Just trying to figure it all out.

                              Failure is an opportunity to learn.

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