Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rules of Engagement - A worthy editorial

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Rules of Engagement - A worthy editorial

    This editorial is a good starting point for \"when should I use my gun?\" discussions. Several of our members consider this good advice, and well thought out. Please read and consider:

    Dangers In Intervention by Evan Marshall


    Added by Norinco982lover on 12/2/2013

    Another good read

    http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...ermit-carriers
    Last edited by norinco982lover; 12-02-2013, 17:24.
    DoubleTap IDPA / Purveyor and Repairer of Small Arms
    www.flyingmonkeygunworks.com
    SilencerShop Powered NFA Dealer

  • #2
    The link for this editorial has been changed to the following:

    http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...tervention.asp

    Paul

    Comment


    • #3
      Evan Marshall is a man who knows whereof he speaks. Heed his words, and learn from them.
      Let me point a couple of other things out. A recent thread asked what you would do if someone tried to force his way into your house. Consider that you would be sued for excessive use of force. If your homeowners insurance carrier sees a biased jury, they may just offer a settlement to the plaintiff just to make him go away. They won't see it in the same terms that you do; they look at it as a purely business decision. Do you think for one minute that they care about the fact that it makes you look bad? Of course not. All they will see is a chance to have the case be over and done with and save money to boot. All the public will see is that the bad guy got compensation from the good guy, so he must have done something wrong. In short, it was a purely business decision, but one that makes you look incredibly bad.
      And when the media gets the story, how do you think they will play it? Suppose you are accosted by a very large young man who pulls a gun on you. The light is not too good. You draw your handgun and kill him. So far so good, right? You were, after all, in reasonable fear of your life, and you acted accordingly. However, it turns out that the guy was a 14-year-old who was large for his age and the gun is a realisitc-looking toy.
      Here are a couple of possible headlines:
      MAN SHOOTS ARMED ROBBER or
      MAN SHOOTS BOY WITH TOY PISTOL
      Which of these headlines is more likely? Think about our local media and how much they abhor concealed carry. The possibility-in fact, the very high probability-exists that your life will be a nightmare afterwards. Think about how your neighbors will treat you. Think of the phone calls in the middle of the night, the hate mail.
      Don't have the illusion that you will be treated as a hero. Just the opposite.
      Everything I have described here has happened before. These are things that you may want to think about. And prepare for.
      Taceant colloquia. Effugiat risus. Hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae.
      The Pale Horse available on Amazon for your digital reader.
      I don't know why I'm better with revolvers, keat so please stop asking.

      Comment


      • #4
        Should be a must read for all CCWs. It's as good as I've ever read on that subject.

        Got it sdj. big smile

        Comment


        • #5
          ....

          Originally posted by Geno View Post
          Should be a must read for all CCWs. It's as good as I've ever read on that subject.

          Got it sdj. big smile
          Very good reading..Thanks for the link.Again I will revert to every situation calls for a different responce.To each his own..All you can do is try to make the best choice for that particular incident.Things are heated,adrenaline is pumping...you can only hope you make the right choices and that things will go in your favor.
          President Wichita Practical Pistol Club
          Certified Kansas CCH Instructor
          Certified Glock Armorer & Glocksmith
          Tactical Warrant Service Certified
          Vector Tactical Systems Instructor

          Comment


          • #6
            After reading Evan Marshall's "The Dangers of Intervention" I'm seriously thinking about contacting him for permission to use a re-print of his article as a handout in all my future CCH classes. As Geno said, it should be a "must read" for all CCH holders, and I agree.

            w0eb
            Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon. The pigeon
            knocks over all the pieces, craps on the board, and then struts around like
            it won the game.
            Life member NRA, US Army Security Agency Retired, KSRA member Retired KSCCH instructor.

            Comment


            • #7
              excellent thread...
              my CCW trainer said somewhat the same thing - he said whenever you read: you "may" be sued, replace it with: you "will" be sued.

              Comment


              • #8
                Upon reflection, I wish that all CCW courses had to include the "Shoot/Don't Shoot" program as a part of their training prior to certification.

                Comment


                • #9
                  cost/benefit

                  Shoot/Don't shoot? If a person is about to be injured, killed or is otherwise in danger, shooting may be the necessary action. But if a TV set or other property is being stolen, consider the chance that you will be sued and or go to jail. Also most people have insurance to cover stolen property.

                  Carry and be prepared. Look condfident and be alert. But even when you may have legal authority to shoot, is that TV set or your car worth that much? You have the right to make citizens arrest and to use froce to make the arrest. If the perp escalates and you end up having to shoot to defend your life, you are "justified" but will wonder about whether it might have been better to take his picture and call the cops.

                  You can defend lives and dwellings, but be more careful when defending property. Not only is your money and freedom, but your reputation is on the line too. If the first victim of the BTK killer had shot and killed him, the public and media wou;d have cited his "civic recprd" and question why he was killed.
                  The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
                  If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
                  I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Written for off-duty officers. But a few of them could apply to a CCL as well.



                    12 Rules For Off-Duty Conduct

                    From the February 2006 Issue Officer.Com

                    By Lindsey Bertomen


                    There is a shift in priorities when an officer is on duty and when he is off duty. While policies vary from department to department and laws vary from state to state, generally there is an attempt to clearly delineate between on and off duty.

                    The on-duty officer generally may use force to affect an arrest. The off-duty officer's justification shifts to self-defense and protection, not enforcement. For this reason the off-duty force continuum is different from the on-duty one. This also means the options for off duty are different. For example, the likelihood of an officer carrying a baton or stun device off duty is rather low. In the use-of-force continuum, this would create a gap between "hands-on" force (using one's personal defense weapons like hands, fist or feet) and the use of lethal force like a firearm.

                    What distinguishes between on duty and off duty? While on duty, a police officer generally is not required to retreat when met with resistance. The on-duty officer may use controlling force to overcome opposition. Controlling force is defined as the minimal force, above verbal command, required or needed to control a suspect or situation. While off duty, the officer's priorities must shift. Unless an officer is prepared to invoke peace officer powers and affect an arrest, the duty to continue with controlling force stops when retreat is a reasonable option.

                    No situation, even with the same subjects, location, officers and force options, will have exactly the same controlling force. Although situations may have a similar range of force, there is an infinite set of variables. What is consistent is the fact that not enough training exists to assist the officer in off-duty conduct.

                    It is arguable that a law enforcement officer is always on duty. For example, when an off-duty officer is assaulted by someone who knows and recognizes him as a peace officer, the aggressor's crime is assault on a peace officer, not simple assault.

                    There are differences in the dynamics between on and off duty as well. When calling dispatch off duty, the officer may have to give dispatchers a full assessment of the condition, especially if out of jurisdiction. This takes time. They also may have family members or a situation that might emotionally impact the officer's logical response at the scene. When on duty, backup is a radio call away.

                    What many do not recognize is the subtle institutionalization of police officers that occurs over time. When an incident occurs in their presence, failure to respond creates a role conflict. Officers respond to crimes in progress because society expects them to respond and they expect themselves to respond. Often a feeling of frustration arises when officers are dispatched to crime scenes where no one responds. They are subject to the scrutiny of their peers by "letting the bad guy go." This institutionalization is an occupational hazard that the general public cannot understand.

                    To aid officers in becoming as effective as possible in their off-duty roles, the following 12 rules are offered.

                    Always carry a gun
                    There are three different agency policies in regards to off-duty firearm carry: never carry, optional carry and always carry. Although there have been 43 unfortunate events of fratricide since 1987, better training, rather than disarming, would be more efficient in preventing tragedies.

                    The never carry policy discredits some of the basic reasons police officers are what they are. First, the one standard that all law enforcement agencies require of their officers is sound judgment. This sound judgment does not leave the officer after he removes the uniform. Secondly, if it is a safe assumption all armed personnel are out of the area because no uniforms are seen, the rational criminal is not deterred from his conduct. Third, there are instances where an armed response is the obvious response. These include some well-documented incidents of off-duty officers stopping school shootings. A gun may not be the right tool for every situation, but it certainly is the only tool for some situations.

                    Train, train, train
                    Training for off-duty concepts must include the extreme psychological trauma inflicted by not acting. For example, the off-duty deputy sheriff in a bank teller line witnessing a robbery in progress might be able to consciously rationalize the fact that the robber took only money and did not cause any injuries. Training prior to this incident might be able to ease the emotional turmoil that follows from not drawing his gun.

                    Training also must include methods of carry and recognizing others who may be armed. It is important that officers know methods of completely concealing their weapons and discreetly carrying them. For example, it may be appropriate to have an overcoat over a .45, but inappropriate in an area where everyone else is wearing shorts and T-shirts.

                    Consider less-lethal choices
                    The trick to using a less-lethal product is to deliver the payload within a minimum timeframe of telegraphing one's intent. Initially the officer needs to look around to insure collateral damage is minimized. Then the OC product needs to be deployed invisibly.

                    For example, imagine an off-duty officer in his car. The officer pulls up into the parking lot of the mall and notices a person walking between parked cars. This man sees the off-duty officer and walks directly towards him. There is nothing in his conduct that signals an attack is imminent, but only a fool would eliminate this possibility. Perhaps the man is just asking directions. Perhaps he intends to lull the victim into a false sense of security or divide the attention so an accomplice hidden nearby can conduct the attack. The smart off-duty officer should already have his keys out with the pepper spray pointed at the "suspect." If the gun is in a pocket, then the gun hand should already be on the grip. If the gun is on the hip, the thumb should already be hooked in the clothing. When it appears the person will approach, the officer's conduct should begin with a verbal challenge. The nature of that verbal challenge should be capable of screening what the suspect's next move will be. No person should ever approach another unchecked.

                    Language is important
                    Use correct language. If the intentions are unknown and there is time to deliver a verbal challenge, the challenge should be something like, "I don't know you. Do you mind stepping back a little?" This is a softer approach to the on-duty command, "Don't move." Commands that require an immediate response from the officer begin with a hard consonant. Hard consonant orders like "Don't move," "Get down" and "Drop that gun" are much more effective than soft consonant orders like "Show me your hands" and "Freeze."

                    Remember, "Don't make me shoot you" is not only a good abrupt command, it is also more legally defensible than "I will shoot you." In the former, it is implied that something the suspect has done has caused the officer to shoot. Also, language which includes consequences of use of force should never be used. For example, "This is going to hurt" or phrases that allude to killing, dying or pain should not be part of the vocabulary.

                    "Call the police" is also a hard consonant command. This is an excellent method of letting the potential witnesses know that you will remain at the scene when the uniformed officers arrive. Subconsciously, bystanders process this by thinking this must be the good guy because he is calling for the police. If the off-duty officer has his hands full with guns and flashlights, "Call the police" is an excellent second choice.

                    There are certain times when language should not be used. It is usually not advisable to warn someone before deploying chemical irritants. If one has to communicate they are spraying, the situation may have already deteriorated. Deploy and spray quickly. Render aid and apologize, if necessary, later.

                    Use the radar
                    There is a considerable amount of literature written on officer "radar." It all boils down to this: an attitude of constant vigilance will significantly reduce vulnerability to an attack.

                    While not true in all cases, some victims communicate crime-promoting signals prior to the attack. This is one of the reasons a veteran police officer often has to be retrained in order to do plainclothes work. Their constant state of vigilance prevents them from looking at the ground or allowing people to walk up to them without setting off the "safe distance" radar.

                    This radar is perfectly fine while walking to one's car in the mall parking lot. However, it will never do if the plainclothes officer wishes to convince the person under surveillance that an arrest team will appear from nowhere when signaled. Veteran officers learn to quickly assess people by looking at them, evaluate the cover in a given location, observe everyone's hands and eyes, monitor facial expressions, and filter a person's language for the true content of the words. Additionally, officers learn to exchange subtle signals to others they work with.

                    The other part of using the radar is the fact that officers need to maintain a situational awareness in order to identify other assailants. When a situation reaches critical mass, tunnel vision will have a tendency to preclude other possible threats.

                    Be a good witness
                    Is off-duty intervention the only choice? Act only if the situation demands an armed response. Otherwise, be a good witness. The scale of measuring an emergency situation will never be linear. That is, in every situation all participants must judge whether it is time to use deadly force or not.

                    Officers also should be aware of situations where one must consider the balance of utility and exigency. If the trip for milk at midnight places the off-duty officer in a position where he would be recognized or threatened, eat toast and jam for breakfast instead.

                    Dial 911
                    Use a "backdoor line" to dispatch. This should be a number given only to law enforcement officers who generally work in the area. It should be a telephone line that, when called, dispatchers assume it is a law enforcement officer on the other end until proven otherwise. Officers should have a line or catchphrase that immediately establishes their credentials. This catchphrase can be the same line used on the street for officers to quickly identify themselves when in plainclothes. One suggestion is to use the FCC license number of the dispatch. Most people do not know this number.

                    The catchphrase cannot be used without interagency cooperation, training and information security. The phrase and accompanying training must be shared with allied agencies.

                    An alternative to using the catchphrase should be plain English. "I am an off-duty police officer" or in some jurisdictions, "I am on the job" would be acceptable.

                    Officers generally have a significant amount of training on how to respond to calls and what they are supposed to do at calls. Contingency training should include how to call 911 in case of an emergency.

                    Everyone should be trained to begin the call with the location of the incident. This will insure that if the call is interrupted, at least something will be dispatched to the area. The nature of the call maybe unknown to the officers arriving, but help will arrive.

                    Other components should include the nature of the call, description, number of suspects, vehicles and weapons, and the officer's description. For example, "9128 this is off-duty Reilly Number 967 robbery in progress at 270 Richards Road." If the call is interrupted at this point, officers are already being deployed. Most officers have training in how to provide descriptions of suspects. It is important for them to be trained in remembering to describe themselves.

                    Officers should never hang up on dispatch if it appears the call will be interrupted. Setting the phone down and letting dispatchers listen may allow dispatchers to gather valuable intelligence from the scene.

                    Make and practice an exigency plan with family members
                    Officers should discuss with their families the types of situations unique to the occupation. These discussions should include, "Crime in progress," "Someone recognized me while I was off duty" and "I need to report to work now" drills. Families should establish and know the signal system that tacitly says, "Please separate from me and call help."

                    Identify, identify, identify
                    On an emergency call, anyone not wearing a uniform or displaying a badge will be considered a threatening piece of the puzzle until properly identified. This is another important concept: until identified, officers will be considered "a person with the gun" as opposed to "an officer with a gun." Off-duty officers should be educated not to argue with or point weapons in the general direction of arriving officers. They should allow uniformed officers to restore order, regardless of their rank or duty assignment.

                    All off-duty encounters should include the off-duty officer repeating the mantra, "Off-duty officer, don't shoot" or "Police officer, don't shoot." This should be repeatedly announced, regardless of whether the off-duty officer can see others present or not.

                    Every member of every agency should be trained to listen for a similar statement. In training for off-duty situations, all verbal commands should be followed by something that identifies them. For example, "Get on the ground" should be followed by dozens of repetitions of "I am a police officer. Do not shoot."

                    No one should carry a firearm without a badge and a cell phone. This rule should include retired and reserve officers. Innovative methods of carrying a badge should be considered. A flat badge worn around the neck can be deployed quickly and in a less threatening manner in high-risk situations.

                    Although it is in the best interest of the officer to identify himself to fellow officers, it is better if he remains unidentified to the general public.

                    One method that aids in officer survival is the dummy wallet. Officers should carry their badge and ID in a wallet separate from the one they open to pay their restaurant check or utility bill. All of the police credentials, including business cards, go into the badge wallet. Extra officer safety points are given for the officer who wears a lightweight badge and ID around his neck. This practice may prevent forcing the hand during a personal crime like a robbery.

                    Carry the most effective weapon the wardrobe allows
                    Officers should comply with department policy in every way. If the policy allows a range of weapon choices, the gun that fires the most effective caliber should be chosen. If the wardrobe allows for a duty-sized weapon, carry the duty weapon. If the situation requires a smaller weapon, the priority should be adjusting the wardrobe to the gun, not the gun to the wardrobe. A weapon with a similar manual of arms to the duty weapon is the most effective.

                    Practice with the weapon carried
                    Officer should fire the off-duty weapon on a regular basis, not just qualify twice a year with it. Sight picture can vary from gun to gun. It is imperative the off-duty officer can shoot effectively with his choice. If the deployment or equipment is unfamiliar, the method of carry is ineffective.

                    The most powerful element of self-defense
                    Besides vigilance, the most powerful element of self-defense is surprise.

                    When attacked, if the "victim" returns an audacious, violent and unexpected response, the tables will be turned. This is as appropriate in an on-duty as an off-duty situation. A large percentage of law enforcement officers injured or murdered in the arrest process did not apply initial controlling force effectively. This concept is appropriate for off duty also. The officer must quickly overcome, not meet, resistance in a manner that completely neuters the threat.

                    All right, maybe 13 rules
                    Every officer who has ever donned a uniform in earnest deserves the same thing: a healthy and uneventful retirement. The final rule is to keep this goal in mind.


                    See also
                    Off-Duty Deployment of a Full-Sized Firearm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Another good link for the ladies in your life , a must read;
                      http://www.corneredcat.com/Mindset/boundaries.aspx

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just sent in my paper work for my permit and wish to thank all of you for the great information on this thread!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Made me think

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jim Macklin View Post
                            Shoot/Don't shoot? If a person is about to be injured, killed or is otherwise in danger, shooting may be the necessary action. But if a TV set or other property is being stolen, consider the chance that you will be sued and or go to jail. Also most people have insurance to cover stolen property.

                            Carry and be prepared. Look condfident and be alert. But even when you may have legal authority to shoot, is that TV set or your car worth that much? You have the right to make citizens arrest and to use froce to make the arrest. If the perp escalates and you end up having to shoot to defend your life, you are "justified" but will wonder about whether it might have been better to take his picture and call the cops.

                            You can defend lives and dwellings, but be more careful when defending property. Not only is your money and freedom, but your reputation is on the line too. If the first victim of the BTK killer had shot and killed him, the public and media wou;d have cited his "civic recprd" and question why he was killed.
                            Great points, but I have a question:

                            What if you either come home to a burglary in progress, or wake up to one? The BG has your TV, or some other equipment, but no visible weapon. Obviously, you train your weapon on him, he freezes, maybe wets himself, and thusly obeys all your commands until LEO arrives, but, what if he doesn't obey? What if he stares at you and continues to walk out the door?

                            I would assume physical force (outside of weapons fire) would be suitable? There again, what if he's like 350 lbs?
                            "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ingorance and conscientious stupidity" - Martin Luther King, Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wolste99 View Post
                              Great points, but I have a question:

                              What if you either come home to a burglary in progress, or wake up to one? The BG has your TV, or some other equipment, but no visible weapon. Obviously, you train your weapon on him, he freezes, maybe wets himself, and thusly obeys all your commands until LEO arrives, but, what if he doesn't obey? What if he stares at you and continues to walk out the door?

                              I would assume physical force (outside of weapons fire) would be suitable? There again, what if he's like 350 lbs?
                              If some bad guy wants to steal my old TV, won't stop, won't surrender, I do have homeowners [renters] insurance that will buy me a better bigger screen HDDTV, so I'd let him go if he would not stop. Force to defend property is lawful, but lethal force may not be used unless your life or another's is in danger... 21-3213 become a 21-3211 action.

                              Every case, place, or person will be different and will vary from day to day and hour to hour.
                              The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
                              If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
                              I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X