Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Knives and stabbings

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Knives and stabbings

    May be in wrong forum. Iíve seen on a lot of the cop shows where the detective says something must have involved great anger since the victim was stabbed 15, 20, or more times. The operative concept is stabbed and not sliced. Question is whatís the chance of a novice knifer who discovered the victim does not die on one poke, and the subsequent stabs were made to quiet the screaming or stop the thrashing? On the movies a single thoracic stab will do it, but I suspect reality is not that clean. Anyone have real information to share on the topic?

  • #2
    I did a little morbid researching on this back awhile ago after reading about a stabbing. It's a gruesome subject but there is a lot of documentation to be found on the matter in medical reports. The bullet points on the matter were that a stabbing death is generally a long, drawn out death due to anatomy. We tend to have bones, dense muscle and hard stuff like cartilage in the way of vulnerable organs that are the common targets. Because of this, stabbing deaths generally result in loss of consciousness due to blood loss AKA hypovolemia.

    If you damage the heart; which turns out is fairly hard to do but seems to be a common target, you can take someone out with about 15 seconds of post trauma consciousness before hypovolemic shock takes over. But again, that is pretty hard to do with a knife and no experience.

    Stab in the back of the head and hitting the madula oblangada, This is a tough thing to do with a knife as well since you have to hit the small gap between the atlas and the skull base. Piercing the temples deeply or a very deep ocular stab is pretty close to instant shut down as well but those need to be deep stabs.

    Stabbing/slashing a bunch of major arteries and veins can take minutes for incapacitate unless they are expert on where to hit and have a very docile victim. I suspect you are asking because you were curious about the number of stab wounds in a stabbing often being high. In many cases, I also noted the throat is cut as well and it doesn't seem to have the immediate effect seen in the movies.

    I used to work in a packing plant while going to college. The throat cut technique was not allowed because it was deemed inhumane due to the suffering of the animals after being cut. They still bled them out through the throat but only after they had been electrocuted (pigs). That was about 1996.

    My suspicions based on all this is that victims continue to be stabbed long after the killing wound has been inflicted simply because the victims still appear to have fight in them until they hit their hypovolemic threshold; which is another variable that I do not believe can be predicted across the board. 1/2 gallon of blood loss for an average adult is what they used to teach us in safety videos and whatnot.

    So just imagine how long it would take to lose a half gallon of blood. That would take a good bit of time.
    Last edited by fixxer; 09-12-2019, 03:47.
    For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
    And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
    And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
    And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!
    -Lord Byron (=5 lines)

    Comment


    • #3
      Years go I worked for a genuine hard case conservative. Illinois had a U.S. Senator, Charles Percy, D from Chicago area was very anti-gun.
      He visited the Vietnam War and wrote an article about his fact finding trip in Ladies Home Journal [ if I remember the magazine ]. I do remember that he said just after the helicopter landed a VC mortar attack began. The pilot gave him a 38 revolver. Percy said, " I was more afraid of the gun in my hand hand I was of the VC mortars,"

      A year or two later his daughter was murdered in their home by a home invader. It took half an hour or more while the guy chased her around the house stabbing her until she finally died.

      My boss, Tom Hoopes Jr. wrote the Senator a letter. He basically said, YOU MISERABLE PARENT, IF YOU'D TAUGHT YOUR FAMILY HOW TO SHOOT AND BOUGHT HER A GUN HER KILLER WOULD BE DEAD AND SHE'D BE ALIVE.

      If you've watched the TV show on History Channel FORGED IN FIRE, stabbing and slashing ballistics dummies you will see how fast five wounds happen. Then the expert uses his hands to show the depth and extreme wounds with blood, guts and the final words...


      Last edited by Jim Macklin; 09-12-2019, 06:46.
      The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
      If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
      I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

      Comment


      • #4
        SELF DEFENSE instructors describe being stabbed as often feeling like a light punch

        If two people are fighting and adrenaline is pumping the person might not even know that he has been stabbed if he doesn't see the knife, I have read numerous accounts of people not knowing they were stabbed

        Pain may or may not play a part so just like a bullet, stabbing wounds are blood loss dependent

        I have no doubt that anger plays a role in multiple stab wounds, the same could be said for multiple gun shot wounds, typically there is anger when people fight

        Unfortunately the majority of people believe what they see in movies and in news reports about weapons and their use, seldom are either true


        In some blade arts we see hand and arm hits happening first

        The goal is to take away the opponents ability to effectively use his weapon, in Filipino Martial Arts this is called "Defanging the Snake" in this short video we the hand being hit first, this is done because people who fought with blades back in the day knew they did not cause instant incapacitation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H4mSIWoM0E,
        Last edited by ricco; 09-12-2019, 15:55.
        "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

        "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

        Comment


        • #5
          Fity year ago a SPD Sgt. was off-duty when a fight started. Luckily it was next to a hospital and a surgical team was ready to do something else when he was rolled into teh ER with his throat cut almost from ear to ear.
          He didn't know the guy had sliced him about 2-3 inches deep with a straight razor. Friend he was with him saved him by hitting the perp in the head with a muzzle.
          First the officer knew he was cut when his chest felt warm and wet.

          He came into the store where I worked to buy a new set of guns. While in the hospital his house was stripped, copper plumbing, guns and everything else.
          He was wearing a steel halo to prevent his head and neck from rupturing.
          The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
          If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
          I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

          Comment


          • #6
            I read or heard somewhere that there was a psychological aspect to someone that chooses to kill with a knife by stabbing. Can't remember the theory other than it had something to do with the intimacy of up close and the knife entering someone. That may effect how many times someone is stabbed.
            Last edited by Dmog; 09-12-2019, 18:37.
            Its Dave, open up....Dave's not here!

            gladium habens libertatem habet

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks all for your perspectives. Fixxer, I have to admit to holding a Ph.D. in a discipline closely parallel to forensics (no I won't say what, but you can surely guess) and my experience with studying stab wounds have been from arrows or spears on animals. Yep. The heart is very well protected and for good reason! I just kept seeing the forensic guys on TV saying something like "this is an organized and very angry killer to stab this victim 10 (or 15, 20, 30!) times. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that if my understanding of stab wounds was restricted to the movies (anywhere from El Dorado to Guns of Navarrone) where the victim goes down quietly and permanently on one stick, then a killer might be surprised to see no effect on the first or second, or 10th stick and would keep on keeping on! No great anger needed, just frustration that the job wasn't done as easily and the movie says it should be!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Macklin View Post
                Years go I worked for a genuine hard case conservative. Illinois had a U.S. Senator, Charles Percy, D from Chicago area was very anti-gun.
                He visited the Vietnam War and wrote an article about his fact finding trip in Ladies Home Journal [ if I remember the magazine ]. I do remember that he said just after the helicopter landed a VC mortar attack began. The pilot gave him a 38 revolver. Percy said, " I was more afraid of the gun in my hand hand I was of the VC mortars,"

                A year or two later his daughter was murdered in their home by a home invader. It took half an hour or more while the guy chased her around the house stabbing her until she finally died.

                My boss, Tom Hoopes Jr. wrote the Senator a letter. He basically said, YOU MISERABLE PARENT, IF YOU'D TAUGHT YOUR FAMILY HOW TO SHOOT AND BOUGHT HER A GUN HER KILLER WOULD BE DEAD AND SHE'D BE ALIVE.

                If you've watched the TV show on History Channel FORGED IN FIRE, stabbing and slashing ballistics dummies you will see how fast five wounds happen. Then the expert uses his hands to show the depth and extreme wounds with blood, guts and the final words...


                Yeah but TV... Not many people out there are attacking with khopesh swords, full size bowies or a cutlass. They're kind of hard to conceal and even harder to learn. Most of what you see in the news is generally accomplished with a knife that is convenient and available. Even a full size butcher knife or skinning blade doesn't have near the mass the blades being tested on Forged in Fire.
                For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
                And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed;
                And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
                And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!
                -Lord Byron (=5 lines)

                Comment


                • #9
                  IF the .gov passes the Red Flag Infringement legislation, will they include knives (at least big ones) as well as guns, to be taken away from the victim? And hammers? And car keys? And charcoal-lighting fluid and lighters/matches? And..... Ace2
                  Sometimes the term 'Idiot' is a description and not an insult.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ace, we crapped the bed with the Patriot Act.
                    Originally posted by kscardsfan
                    Grain of salt hell, I'm taking it with a salt block from the feed store. Thats a big bunch of crap there.




                    QUOTE=mjkeat;n1101496]****ing stupid.[/QUOTE]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by fixxer View Post

                      Yeah but TV... Not many people out there are attacking with khopesh swords, full size bowies or a cutlass. They're kind of hard to conceal and even harder to learn. Most of what you see in the news is generally accomplished with a knife that is convenient and available. Even a full size butcher knife or skinning blade doesn't have near the mass the blades being tested on Forged in Fire.
                      NOTE--- That's is what I said was most common... The 5 to 8 " chefs knives are very common because they can be cheap. Almost every home has kitchen and most kitchens have knives, So when a fight gets started a sharp knife is almost always available.

                      See FBI UCR https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s

                      The TV show is accurate in that it shows just how lethal the "old weapons" were.. If you watch the reactions of the "smiths" during their tests they seem shocked and amazed at the stab wounds, slashes and disembowelment. Most only test their knife forging skill on tree branches, paper, the hair on their arm or maybe a tomato or watermelon.

                      Jim Macklin replied to Not again!!!!!!!
                      in The WorkBench

                      09-12-2019, 02:07 Subscribed


                      Kitchen knives, such as the chef's knife are common weapon at hand when an assault happens.

                      Under $6

                      A Bowie can easily remove...
                      See more | Go to post
                      Last edited by Jim Macklin; 09-15-2019, 07:57.
                      The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
                      If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
                      I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have read that steak knives and screw drivers are the most commonly used stabbing weapons

                        Weapons of opportunity

                        When we hear about multiple stab wounds it could be a symptom of a psychosis, an action in the heat of the moment or that the weapon e.g. steak knives and screw drivers are piss poor weapons that don't do enough damage to cause rapid blood loss or create a disabling injury
                        "I suppose it's tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail...." ~Abraham Maslow~

                        "Skill makes you harder to kill" ~ Unknown

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ricco View Post
                          I have read that steak knives and screw drivers are the most commonly used stabbing weapons

                          Weapons of opportunity

                          When we hear about multiple stab wounds it could be a symptom of a psychosis, an action in the heat of the moment or that the weapon e.g. steak knives and screw drivers are piss poor weapons that don't do enough damage to cause rapid blood loss or create a disabling injury
                          It could also just be rage.
                          The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
                          If your religion says suicide and murder are wrong; Aren't you doing both if you are not prepared to defend your life and the lives of others?
                          I am not a lawyer, but I have personal opinions.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X