Interesting question...

[rosert]

With my luck I would be drawing on the BG and Tkarter or Gerhard1 would be somewhere behind me, unable to see the first guy. At that time, I have just become the apparent BG. As viewed from their angle, I would have the opportunity, capability and provided the intent. Not good for me!

[gerhard1]

Originally Posted by Dieselkanic

I agree...

But can't you just see a 'compassionate' jury saying "he only shot into the ceiling, he didn't actually hurt anyone"

While it is possible that they might react this way, I think that in general, juries tend to do the right thing. Not always, but generally they do.
In any event, I would sooner trust my freedom to a jury of my peers than my life or the lives of those that I have a responsibility to protect to the mercies of a BG. Wouldn't you?

[gerhard1]

Originally Posted by rosert

With my luck I would be drawing on the BG and Tkarter or Gerhard1 would be somewhere behind me, unable to see the first guy. At that time, I have just become the apparent BG. As viewed from their angle, I would have the opportunity, capability and provided the intent. Not good for me!

That is a risk that, not only persons such as the esteemed Mr K, as well as yours truly take whenever we carry our sidearms. Not only from fellow CCW's, but LE as well.
That is why these things are a judgement call: each situation is different.
You brought up a very good point. Thank you.

[Tim KS]

Originally Posted by rosert

With my luck I would be drawing on the BG and Tkarter or Gerhard1 would be somewhere behind me, unable to see the first guy. At that time, I have just become the apparent BG. As viewed from their angle, I would have the opportunity, capability and provided the intent. Not good for me!

The observation above is more what I was suggesting when I said 'could it possibly be LEO'.

In a crowded store, are we really sure we are in a position to know all the facts? ...did we hear everything that was said? ...are we sure we know who's the BG....or even IF there is a BG?

Another one of those "you have to be there in order to make the judgment call" kind of scenarios.

[Ashraam]

These uncertainties are part of the reason I'd prefer to just get everyone outside safely rather than fire on an unidentified person who isn't harming anyone yet.

[rosert]

Ashraam, I agree, that would always be our best option.

Never having been in any situation such as this. I think I would have to see them directly threaten someone before I would consider engaging the BG. To many unknowns to take that big of a risk based on assumptions. On the other hand, it would be hard to live with, if I waited too long and could have prevented a death.

[Oldstuffer]

Originally Posted by Ashraam

You are in a crowded public area and a man with a gun who has not hurt anyone yells for everyone to get out. People panic and begin running for the exit or taking cover.

You may commence flaming me now.

No, no flaming, at least not from my flamethrower (it's a hot one too, it HAS flamed, well, over the years. LOL).

Firstly, you left out, that he fired his gun.
You burried it in the seccond sentence, but it is of sufficient magnatude that it deserves equal credit with the mere fact of possessing the firearm, not "seccond (lesser) billing".

Your insistence on not shooting the person is fine.

I believe your insistence that he has NOT PROVEN THAT HE IS SHOOTABLE (ie, a "valid target" simply because he has not hurt anyone, YET, is in error.

The "perp" has shown, actively, everything necissary to make himself a valid threat to people's life and limb.
He has a weapon, has shown, beyond doubt, that it is real, it works, and that he knows how to work it. All that is left is a .3 second decision TO use it, on someone.
At this time, that decision is SECONDARY to the others he has already made insofar as making himself a valid target.
He already wounded the building, MAYBE someone on a seccond floor you have not seen.
Whether you choose to act upon that fact, is your call.

If you choose to wait untill he kills/maims someone, suit yourself, I would advise waiting, and watching, from behind cover (not just behind concealment (there is a difference)), and I would advise waiting with a gun in your hand, even if you see fit not to draw down.

I hope he doesn't kill me before you put him down.

If it'll make you feel better, take out his leg instead of putting one in his brain pan. MAYBE he'll drop the gun and wait on Paul Blart to arrive
He MIGHT shoot you back then, making your follow-up shots "legally simpler".

[Tim KS]

Originally Posted by Oldstuffer

........... watching, from behind cover (not just behind concealment (there is a difference)), and I would advise waiting with a gun in your hand.....

Thinking about this scenario.......I think above would cover what I probably would do. However, if my cover allowed (& without causing undue concern for my own safety), I would would hold aim on COM while watching & waiting.

[gerhard1]

Originally Posted by Oldstuffer

~snip~

If it'll make you feel better, take out his leg instead of putting one in his brain pan. MAYBE he'll drop the gun and wait on Paul Blart to arrive
He MIGHT shoot you back then, making your follow-up shots "legally simpler".

Oldstuffer, I agree with most everthinig that you said in your last post except for this.
If you don't think it is a killing situation, then don't shoot. A prosecutor would use this against you because if you didn't think that you were justified in killing the guy, why use deadly force against him?
Another factor is that the torso is a much larger target, hence easier to hit. Torso shots are also much likelier to stop the BG than a leg shot. Your intention should be to stop the BG, not kill him, but as you may very well kill him, you should never use deadly force against another unless you are justified in killing him. And unfortunately, the shots that are the most likely achieve instant stops (CNS, spine, etc.) are also very likely to kill the guy.
Bottom line for me is shoot for the COM and that gives the best chance of stopping the BG.

[Ashraam]

Oldstuffer, I do agree with you that I would be justified in taking the shot, should it present itself.

Where I am differing is in the idea that he may not be an immediate threat yet. In other words, if he's not preparing to shoot into the crowd then I'm not either. I think a lot of people are ignoring just how chaotic a situation like this is likely to be. Just remember you own every bullet you fire. You break it, you bought it.

Staying behind cover with my weapon ready is a given, but if I do shoot it will be to stop the threat as quickly as possible.